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Thread: Has Ferrari got it sorted??

  1. #1
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    Default Has Ferrari got it sorted??

    Hi everyone.
    I've been hovering over the Ferrari marque for a while now. I started looking at The California at first and now I've been looking at 599 but after speaking to a few of you on here I'm a bit worried and asking myself should I really make the leap?

    The 599 seems to have a 20-30,000 mile life span before needed quite a few parts changing.
    Is the California as bad? I would try and go for the Cali T

    Maserati seem to have got their cars sorted now and I've only really needed servicing and the odd little thing changing

    Thanks in advance Nick

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    Quote Originally Posted by FF1078 View Post
    Hi everyone.
    I've been hovering over the Ferrari marque for a while now. I started looking at The California at first and now I've been looking at 599 but after speaking to a few of you on here I'm a bit worried and asking myself should I really make the leap?

    The 599 seems to have a 20-30,000 mile life span before needed quite a few parts changing.
    Is the California as bad? I would try and go for the Cali T

    Maserati seem to have got their cars sorted now and I've only really needed servicing and the odd little thing changing

    Thanks in advance Nick
    Great question nick.

    All Ferrari's are engineered from platforms that are based on a design ethos of the highest levels of performance. As such they drive, behave, and wear accordingly. They are only really matched in this by things like the GT RS level porsches and extreme exotica such as Pagani and Koenigsegg.

    I will use just one tiny part - the humble suspension bush to explain.

    In contrast to let's say an MSport BMW a Ferrari suspension bush is virtually the same as a semi-pro level racing component. What I would call club-racing level stuff. It is hard and precise and deliberately selected to give the driver a level of detail, feedback, and driving precision that elevates the capability of the car way above and beyond the ordinary. The MSport BMW by comparison has exactly the same bush as the 100,000+ mile life component of the base model except perhaps a little harder rubber.

    Moving up the cost scale let's take the Carbon Brakes. Ferrari fits these again as standard across the range now in pursuit of ultimate performance and the ability to not fade either lap after lap or more realistically driving hard up and down something like the futa pass on that European trip you bought the car for.

    The downside to these performance parts is they wear in an accelerated way when not used hard and ironically from excessive catalytic damage from cleaning and road salt.
    So...like suspension, 30k and they are done no matter how hard or soft you use them.

    Ferrari cars ARE largely 'sorted' given the volumes they produce and the testing cases they are subject too which are by and large relentless high performance driving at which I can tell you their designs utterly excel.

    Many lesser marques wilt at the level of hard use they can sustain.

    As you go up the performance scale you run into the hard laws of science, materials properties, and the design conflict of performance over longevity. The level of much of Ferrari componentry is it wears whether used hard or not! Some of it sufffers accelerated wear BECAUSE it hasn't been used enough. Ask the 458 aperta owner having to buy auxiliary belts because it has done virtually zero miles!

    If you want to access such high levels of performance it comes with a cost. Now here comes the controversial bit - it's me posting after all.

    The Ferrari market adjusted and adapted to this reality a long time ago as too have things like RS Porsches.
    Having mostly been bought originally by privateer racers and the very hardest charging road drivers who could afford such high level weaponry and it's up keep. As Ferrari became aspirational many people aspire to the brand but have little use for the extreme performance on offer. If most are being honest the actual time you can have your foot fully in fully planted and driving up and through gears can be counted in seconds not hours and days. Thus the majority of ownership is very light and limited use as the way to avoid big bills is to not use it very much. This is the majority case hence the 'laws' of ferrari valuation that currently dominate.

    There are many ways to have the Ferrari experience from renting one for the day to ragging it around Europe for 100k miles until you and it are too old to do so. Posing or using is down to individual choice but all Ferrari's are designed to be really used in anger including the California so yes it's running costs will mirror that of the other cars somewhere between a mod engined V8 and a V12. Many of its components are actually more expensive than the 599.

    Decide what you want it for and how it will honestly be used and plan accordingly. The Maserati Brand was repositioned by the group as a Mercedes / BMW competitor and the cars are engineered accordingly. Many parts are common but the servicing regimes are quite different. To run a Ferrari at Maserati costs you are looking at reducing your mileage dramatically.

  3. #3
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    Thank you very much for a very informative answer

    I understand what your saying about the parts but it just seems silly that the CC brakes only last 30,000 miles.
    My car has them fitted and they'll do 100,000 easily

    I like to drive my cars and with my last Gran Turismo I probably did just over 20000 miles in 3 years
    Now that would mean that I would need to refurbish a Ferrari if I got one. Do the sales people tell you this when you purchase?

    Surely a ball joint is a ball joint? If it's made from titanium it maybe lighter but it shouldn't wear any quicker that a std part?

    It looks like I wont be dipping my toe into the prancing horse's stable now because it just doesn't seem to make sence to produce components that dont last.

    Nick

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    Even though we get what Mod has responded with above, I wouldn't let that put you off looking to own one. His ownership style and experience doesn't mirror that of most owners. Most models have a few 'weak' links but it doesn't have to be silly expensive to keep on top of it.

    Oh, and a ball joint isn't always just a ball joint!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FF1078 View Post
    Thank you very much for a very informative answer

    I understand what your saying about the parts but it just seems silly that the CC brakes only last 30,000 miles.
    My car has them fitted and they'll do 100,000 easily
    What data is driving that assertion?

    I have done independent study on more than 40sets of Ferrari/ Brembo CCM and 30k is the 90%ile case for life. Unfortunately CCM’s are like Compact Discs which they told us were more durable than vinyl discs which somehow got translated to ‘last forever’ they don’t. Also the issue of catalytic oxidation has proven to be far worse than envisaged and is responsible for much of the wear.

    I like to drive my cars and with my last Gran Turismo I probably did just over 20000 miles in 3 years
    Now that would mean that I would need to refurbish a Ferrari if I got one.

    If you bought a new one you probably wouldn’t, some brake pads maybe, ball joints and rod ends maybe not if you kept them dry miles

    Do the sales people tell you this when you purchase?
    Of course not and it’s why all new ferrari’s are service included now with lengthy extendable warranties.

    Surely a ball joint is a ball joint? If it's made from titanium it maybe lighter but it shouldn't wear any quicker than a std part?

    Unfortunately Ferrari genuine ball joints are not that high a spec and they are a plated steel offering that if any corrosion starts destroys itself pretty quickly. We live on a little salty set of islands in the Atlantic with terrible roads, hence these chew up pretty quickly. Most long term owners replace these with Hills Stainless steel ones that a comparable in price but last longer. Factor them into the costs of purchase. They also make toe rod ends. This is why I gave refurbishment figures for suspension in the real world costs. Note my business partner had a GT3 RS which was just the same costs and wear rates. These are extreme machines

    It looks like I wont be dipping my toe into the prancing horse's stable now because it just doesn't seem to make sence to produce components that dont last.
    Nick
    Go into it with knowledge and a budget and you can enjoy it. Maybe you can buy a car that needs all these things doing negotiate a hefty discount and then drive with peace of mind. Perhaps you can get a new car to 20k miles and then do everything and upgrade at the same time knowing you will get circa 30k miles of fun. That’s what I did
    Last edited by Modificato; 06-12-2017 at 07:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyodo View Post
    Even though we get what Mod has responded with above, I wouldn't let that put you off looking to own one. His ownership style and experience doesn't mirror that of most owners. Most models have a few 'weak' links but it doesn't have to be silly expensive to keep on top of it.
    What’s your annual mileage kyodo?

    I laid out the mean time between failures the costs and the mileages as he is comparing 20k in three years with a Maserati which is very heavy use by Ferrari ‘standards’.

    Three years would be more like 7000 - 9000 miles for the average Ferrari.

    If he buys a brand new California and runs it for three years for the same mileage, at that rate he will be starting to refurb stuff beyond that mileage or passing on imminent work to the next owner. If he buys used he will need to know exactly what condition those consumable parts are in and then consider them with his 20k in three years use case. When I bought my 599 at 19k miles it was exactly in line with this and so was EVERY 599 I saw. The approved cars were more expensive as they had typically had some elements done but often not all.

    I really really want him to enjoy the marque and not have any surprises because there are too many Ferrari passed on after a short ownership and the big bill. The marque then gets a rep for fragility, they defect to Porsche / McLaren and find out the same home truth.

    If he changes his use case to less mileage like many do, makes the low mileage pact, and buys well then the case may well be different but please let’s keep it real.

    My use case has nothing to do with this really as I am talking mean time between failure based on many cars not my own.

    70,000 miles 599 I looked at the other week. Third set of discs, 7th set of pads, due a third suspension overhaul.
    Last edited by Modificato; 06-12-2017 at 07:16 PM.

  7. #7
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    I would expect a California to be substantially cheaper to run than a 360, F430, and a 599.

    Variators were redesigned, sealed plastic shrouded suspension joints (first used by BMW on the E46 M3), cross plane crank so less stress on mounts and exhaust etc.

    The trade off of course is precision, but as an entry to the marque I would class it as a pretty safe bet.

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    What mileage would you give it Mark before consumable expenses?

    30k?

    We are not data strong on the Cali yet...

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modificato View Post
    What’s your annual mileage kyodo?
    Sadly lower than I'd like. The joy of being in the South East and UK weather!

    I mentioned your ownership not as a put-down, far from it. Your cars are driven as intended and you're obviously hot on the engineering side. It doesn't mean everyone'll be experiencing five figure bills on a regular basis though. If that's the case then these cars are pretty rubbish and the thought of that saddens me.

    Fortunately for me our previous owner had been through several ball joints (replaced with Hill units), engine and gearbox mounts and the like. That's meant a nice few relatively 'inexpensive' years for us (ish!) but I'm aware that we'll no doubt be running through those items again in the future. In our ownership we've had a couple of the little issues that seem to crop up on the 360 after 25-30k or so - inlet manifold gaskets and the leaky crank seal.

    As you say they're not cheap cars to maintain but perhaps the steel-braked cars soften the blow a little. Fwiw, we're on about 5800 over four and a quarter years including servicing and a new set of tyres, no work deferred other than a couple of stone chips.
    Last edited by Kyodo; 06-12-2017 at 08:09 PM.

  10. #10
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    Don’t worry it wasn’t taken as a put-down at all, what I was trying to convey was the general use case.

    It’s the underlying engineering that drives the costs on one side and the use case on the other.

    Example: The use case for my 599 is circa 3,500 per annum with the bulk of that done in one annual event but the F430 has varied a lot. In the first year of ownership I did 8,000 miles but as my collection grew it did much less. My average has been 2,500 per annum.

    Our original poster was talking 20k over three years so that would have been like me doing my year 1 nearly three times!

    It’s important to share this information as we can see what is likely for different cases and mileages.

    If, as in your case a previous owner has upgraded some stock components, I would not expect you to have had big bills especially if your mileage has been relatively low.

    So for clarity over how many miles has 5,800 been consumed?

    PS I didn’t count my rear main seal which has gone at 25,000 as ironically I know it’s down to doing too few miles this year
    Last edited by Modificato; 06-12-2017 at 08:45 PM.

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