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Thread: Has Ferrari got it sorted??

  1. #21
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    It wouldn't be my daily drive.
    It's just nice weekend car so it might not be 8000 miles p.a but that would be my max.
    My current Stradale will probably do 5000p.a.
    I just cant get my head around such poor engineering when something wont last whether used or not.
    I understand an oil seal may harden if not used and start to leak, fair enough but a ball joint or bush if not used shouldn't deteriorate surely?

    Think I need to do more home work on the California T to see if they need as much up keep
    Would love a 599 and it's not the money, it's the thought in my head that there are parts on that car that would need replacing 3 times in 100,000 miles, not that I would ever get near that mileage but that just seems so wrong to me.

    Nick

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by F355GTS View Post
    I've only ever had any suspension components changed on one of my 599's, front ball joints and rear toe links, IIRC that was at about 23k Miles. The same car also had a set of discs (Sicom refinished) and pads but the wear was mainly down to track use, for reference after one hard trackday at Goodwood the wear rate was 14%!.

    I don't think Paza's experience of brakes is 1%, I'd suspect it's not uncommon at all on cars driven purely on the road, many Ferraris rarely see the upper end of the rev range let alone spirited driving, now I've always liked to explore the performance on the road within reason but on my second 599 brake wear after 2 Years was only 5% at 8.5k miles.

    I should qualify that I have changed cars quite frequently and my mileage history is below (up to July this Year). The following is the work needed outside normal servicing and brakes on non CCM cars

    328GTS Clutch
    F355GTS - Engine rebuild*, Exhaust ECU's, Suspension actuator,
    550 Maranello - Alt belt tensioner
    575- Nothing
    599 - Nothing
    599 - Nothing
    328GTS - Nothing
    355 Spider - Exhaust ECU's , 1 Lambda, Clutch slave cylinder, Triple seals, Sticky stuff, Seat actuators, LED display
    California - Nothing
    California - Nothing
    575 - Inlet manifold gaskets
    599 - Discs, Pads, Rear toe links (warranty), Front ball joints, MAFS - Dealer overfill of oil(warranty)
    California - Nothing
    California 30 - New catalyst (warranty)
    458 Spider - GPS Antenna (warranty)
    FF - Small oil leak from gearbox, Boot switch (both warranty)

    *The car was used extensively for trackdays, failure was a rod bolt
    Great data

    20k miles in three yearswas the OP’s original Maserati benchmark.

    Great share btw.

    The CCM mystery deepens...
    Last edited by Modificato; 07-12-2017 at 10:58 AM.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by FF1078 View Post
    Would love a 599 and it's not the money, it's the thought in my head that there are parts on that car that would need replacing 3 times in 100,000 miles, not that I would ever get near that mileage but that just seems so wrong to me.
    Nick
    Gentle respectful question: where does the expectation come from that 100,000 miles with no consumables on a supercar would be the norm?

    As an engineer there are not the parts to specify that could last that long capable of safely containing the performance. Unless you knew that every owner would never use the performance it’s an impossible design challenge to get that performance at that price.

  4. #24
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    It was too late to post this last night and it appears Mark Collins beat me to it with the Excel screenshot! I had a quick dig around and found my spreadsheet of services from the last ten years and I've included just the columns of relevance. We purchased late 2013 and there have been a few other jobs to do including the replacement of inner door cables and a 'warped' o/s wiper arm assembly (both fairly common issues on the 360). A CS TCU was fitted in 2016. Please ignore the shoddy lack of use in the last year!
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  5. #25
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    Another great and informative thread. Mod, your post regarding Ferrari and BMW (example). That is very informative to me.

    I'm on my third Ferrari and have not really kept up on what each cost me. My first one a Mondial QV cost me including depreciation, £10k over 5½ years.
    The second an F355 with only 24k on when I bought it and me putting just nearly 3k on in 5 years (appalling I know) was fussy car and always required work. I actually only had one belt change and I had to sit down when I got the bill.
    It was always failing emissions at MOT time too. I do beleive previous owners and lack of use caused most of that. However I bought it at the right time and I profited massively from owning that (pure luck I can assure you).
    My 360 is a higher mileage car with 39k on. It's been better but I have only had it two years.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyodo View Post
    It was too late to post this last night and it appears Mark Collins beat me to it with the Excel screenshot! I had a quick dig around and found my spreadsheet of services from the last ten years and I've included just the columns of relevance. We purchased late 2013 and there have been a few other jobs to do including the replacement of inner door cables and a 'warped' o/s wiper arm assembly (both fairly common issues on the 360). A CS TCU was fitted in 2016. Please ignore the shoddy lack of use in the last year!
    Worrying amount of spreadsheet jockeys on here BUT again seriously good share.
    Having had a rear main seal go myself this year through lack of use if we continued to collect data we could probably work out a real-world ‘sweet spot’ for use and cost of ownership. Somebody came up to me at a show once and told me my 430 was “bang on the ‘right’ miles”. (2,500 per year avg). To me that’s woefully low but the ‘expert’ in question was convinced that anymore than that and the Ferrari market would reject it. I explained it was a keeper and so much so that I have owned the same car twice but no effect.

    Perhaps these are 5k-7k a year cars to optimise the wear / lack-of-use trade-off curves but I think a Ferrari replacing a 20k in three years Maserati will lead to a downer on the marque. Can you daily a Ferrari is something a lot of journalists ask but for anyone who has ever done it, it is not really realistic. We need more data on the California. Given that it was developed first as a Maserati project it may well be the most suited till for our OP.

    My 8C spider has 8,000 on it and has been zero cost other than servicing but it is very much a SWB Maserati in the rolling chassis sense.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modificato View Post
    Gentle respectful question: where does the expectation come from that 100,000 miles with no consumables on a supercar would be the norm?

    As an engineer there are not the parts to specify that could last that long capable of safely containing the performance. Unless you knew that every owner would never use the performance it’s an impossible design challenge to get that performance at that price.
    Things like brake pads and disc I can appreciate but not at such low miles
    I'm in the Land Rover business and if we are selling vehicles to customers and had to tell them that whether you use it or not it's going to need a refurb. in 20-30,000 miles I think we would go out of business. Vehicles and parts are getting better all of the time but my quick look into Ferrari seems to go back 70 years in the longevity of their fast moving parts.

    If you used your Defender in harsh conditions all of the time then yes you'd need to change discs, pads, U.J's and ball joints a lot more often but if you left it in a garage you wouldn't need to change anything unless rubber items perrished.
    From what I've read if you left your Ferarri parked up it would still require a lot of money and parts just to keep the errors from popping up?

    I'm just playing devils advocate and I really do want one but from what you guys are saying I cant bring myself to do it.

    Maserati servicing is very expensive but it's 2 yearly so that makes it probably equal to Ferrari but they really are quite reliable now so I'd be silly to move to a car that is going to require so much up keep.

    Nick
    Last edited by FF1078; 07-12-2017 at 03:01 PM.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by FF1078 View Post
    Things like brake pads and disc I can appreciate but not at such low miles
    I'm in the Land Rover business and if we are selling vehicles to customers and had to tell them that whether you use it or not it's going to need a refurb. in 20-30,000 miles I think we would go out of business. Vehicles and parts are getting better all of the time but my quick look into Ferrari seems to go back 70 years in the longevity of their fast moving parts.

    If you used your Defender in harsh conditions all of the time then yes you'd need to change discs, pads, U.J's and ball joints a lot more often but if you left it in a garage you wouldn't need to change anything unless rubber items perrished.
    From what I've read if you left your Ferarri parked up it would still require a lot of money and parts just to keep the errors from popping up?

    I'm just playing devils advocate and I really do want one but from what you guys are saying I cant bring myself to do it.

    Maserati servicing is very expensive but it's 2 yearly so that makes it probably equal to Ferrari but they really are quite reliable now so I'd be silly to move to a car that is going to require so much up keep.

    Nick
    To be perfectly frank I think the build quality is crap - in no way do they compare to a premium mass production vehicle, but then the enjoyment factor is extremely high and surpasses mass produced vehicles.

    None of them are cheap to run, but what supercar is...

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by FF1078 View Post
    Things like brake pads and disc I can appreciate but not at such low miles
    I'm in the Land Rover business and if we are selling vehicles to customers and had to tell them that whether you use it or not it's going to need a refurb. in 20-30,000 miles I think we would go out of business. Vehicles and parts are getting better all of the time but my quick look into Ferrari seems to go back 70 years in the longevity of their fast moving parts.

    If you used your Defender in harsh conditions all of the time then yes you'd need to change discs, pads, U.J's and ball joints a lot more often but if you left it in a garage you wouldn't need to change anything unless rubber items perrished.
    From what I've read if you left your Ferarri parked up it would still require a lot of money and parts just to keep the errors from popping up?

    I'm just playing devils advocate and I really do want one but from what you guys are saying I cant bring myself to do it.

    Maserati servicing is very expensive but it's 2 yearly so that makes it probably equal to Ferrari but they really are quite reliable now so I'd be silly to move to a car that is going to require so much up keep.

    Nick
    This is the conundrum:

    We need to quite clearly separate wear of items like discs every 30k on a 200mph 1800kg supercar from issues caused by lack of use.

    The only Land Rover products remotely close to the Ferrari use case in terms of lack of use are the military vehicles you produce that sit for weeks on end in 'readiness' for large scale conflict. I was involved in a project to eliminate exactly the same issues that many Ferrari's suffer from which moved the UK storage regime to an 'exercised livery' in a controlled environment model.

    I doubt many land rover products get laid up from October through April and then struggle to do 2,000 miles in the 'window' of summer.

    Conversely I have never seen a Land Rover on a track day being hammered around and even at those 4X4 events enthusiasts there have always heavily modified the product for their purposes.

    There are examples on each tipo of crap design elements and as Mark says compared to a volume producers product they are under the skin a bit of a joke... But let's be blunt that is not the main Ferrari market and those of us who have them are not using them as daily transport. They are almost exclusively 'special occasion' vehicles whether a performance addict or enjoying their prestigious status.

    You don't have to tell customers those things because your customers are using your product regularly but I can assure you the servicing people at Ferrari DO have to and they have to more often than not explain why things have happened through not using the car and thus what the customer can do about it.

    Go to any track day and watch owners of all sorts of 'sports cars' dismay when their brakes are toast inside two laps, they have warning lights going off and in my favourite case of the Nissan GTR the car telling them to exit R mode otherwise the transmission will likely explode after two laps. Meanwhile (aside from the lightweights) it's only really the RS Porsche's and Ferrari's can cut the mustard.

    If you want to enter the Ferrari Family it really has to be as an additional special occasion vehicle otherwise the performance would have to be dialled back and it would become just another sports car maker. If you aspire to the brand and want to daily it maybe it's best to get a brand new one and run it under the included maintenance plan. If not and you want a 599 or a Cali then the data here would suggest you get it into tip top condition first and then enjoy the 20k miles of trouble free use you are likely to get.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modificato View Post
    This is the conundrum:

    We need to quite clearly separate wear of items like discs every 30k on a 200mph 1800kg supercar from issues caused by lack of use.

    The only Land Rover products remotely close to the Ferrari use case in terms of lack of use are the military vehicles you produce that sit for weeks on end in 'readiness' for large scale conflict. I was involved in a project to eliminate exactly the same issues that many Ferrari's suffer from which moved the UK storage regime to an 'exercised livery' in a controlled environment model.

    I doubt many land rover products get laid up from October through April and then struggle to do 2,000 miles in the 'window' of summer.

    Conversely I have never seen a Land Rover on a track day being hammered around and even at those 4X4 events enthusiasts there have always heavily modified the product for their purposes.

    There are examples on each tipo of crap design elements and as Mark says compared to a volume producers product they are under the skin a bit of a joke... But let's be blunt that is not the main Ferrari market and those of us who have them are not using them as daily transport. They are almost exclusively 'special occasion' vehicles whether a performance addict or enjoying their prestigious status.

    You don't have to tell customers those things because your customers are using your product regularly but I can assure you the servicing people at Ferrari DO have to and they have to more often than not explain why things have happened through not using the car and thus what the customer can do about it.

    Go to any track day and watch owners of all sorts of 'sports cars' dismay when their brakes are toast inside two laps, they have warning lights going off and in my favourite case of the Nissan GTR the car telling them to exit R mode otherwise the transmission will likely explode after two laps. Meanwhile (aside from the lightweights) it's only really the RS Porsche's and Ferrari's can cut the mustard.

    If you want to enter the Ferrari Family it really has to be as an additional special occasion vehicle otherwise the performance would have to be dialled back and it would become just another sports car maker. If you aspire to the brand and want to daily it maybe it's best to get a brand new one and run it under the included maintenance plan. If not and you want a 599 or a Cali then the data here would suggest you get it into tip top condition first and then enjoy the 20k miles of trouble free use you are likely to get.
    All interesting info and as I've stated it wont be a daily driver. Just nice weekends and the odd trip to Europe.

    Would a main dealer car always need checking by an indy before purchase?

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