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Thread: No Longer the New New Thing

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by sssdu01 View Post
    So why do you drive a 599 and a 430 ? I wouldnt put either of these in the "latest, greatest, most extreme" category.
    ...Because I canít afford the upgrade path to 812 or F8 Tributo - my next car is likely going to be a GT3RS anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Modificato View Post
    In a nutshell - for me it’s the EVO - all day everyday
    In a nutshell - for many it's not - any day. Pretty much why Boxer has found what he has found in the supercar market ie many people enjoy the feel and enjoyment of an older, less computerised car. Not everyone but many.

    And regarding the cost involved with keeping with the latest and greatest, I think you may be mistaken if you think upgrading with each new model isn't going to involve serious losses through depreciation each time you switch (Edit: when compared to keeping an older car). Or do you not mean the 'latest and greatest', just newer than a certain point? I stand by what I said earlier that 430s will become more expensive to run than older models as they themselves age, and the the average punter can do more themselves on an older car than a newer one. Just don't think the economics stack up in your favour on this one, Mod
    Last edited by Nosevi; 10-06-2019 at 04:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Modificato View Post
    ...Because I canít afford the upgrade path to 812 or F8 Tributo - my next car is likely going to be a GT3RS anyway.
    Nice motor

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    Its an interesting issue, analogue vs digital, but its one where I suspect your answer depends on your age. I'm old by the standard here at 73, so I grew up with such engineering icons as the BMC A series engine in the Mini Cooper S. Points, distributor even cross ply tyres, but cars you could enjoy - if that is you were handy with the spanners and knew how to do a decoke. I understand greasy bits but I dont understand ECUs and code to me is something that MI5 use.

    This time round I was replacing the F type that followed the 430. The F isnt a supercar, though it is a much better sportscar than many give it credit for. But its full of modern electronics and features that are irrelevant to the progress of the car down the road and were there just for people who like bells and whistles. The netflix / gamer generation. And it wasnt "special" in the way that a Ferrari is.

    So what to do this time round. My budget was £200k down , but £100k preferred, so I dallied with McLaren, I tried Aston, and Ferraris both California and 458. Somehow most of them seemed "too much" and far too complicated so I looked at 308s , 328, 355,s which were far too basic. And Evora and Morgan Plus 8 ( the BMW engined one). What grabbed me in the end was a 360 manual which seemed to me to be just at that point where enough technology had come along to make cars reliable but not so much that the car morphs into a gaming machine. Its not as analogue as say an E type is, but its a very different simpler machine to a McLaren or a 488.

    And there was another issue. I just cant see the point in paying extra money for more power that I can ever use on the public roads without fear of accident or jail. Just when could I use the 1000hp of the Tributo?

    But as I said right at the beginning, I reckon its an age thing. Just as you like the music of your youth so you are comfortable with the technology of your youth.

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    Re-reading the original post I see that I have drifted into responding to the analogue / digital debate rather than the topic of price levels for halo models.

    We have had almost a decade without a recession and whilst Joe Publc isnt much better off there are many people who have made lots of money. Add into that the lack of belief in tradional pensions and dwindling returns on BTL, its natural that investors turn to alternative assets like paintings and high end cars. I dont know what the ratio is between petrolheads and investors in the market for these halo cars but you can be sure that investment plays a significant part. And investment is all about confidence in a rising market.

    When I was in business and it came to doing the annual , the five year and the ten year forecasts, it was a given that people would forecast a continuation of the present. In a recession - it would go on for ever. In a boom, the same thing. The car investment market is no different and currently is full of people who think that prices will remain strong. They wont. When the economy turns into a down cycle and interest rates rise with inflation, car investors will be selling and prices will fall. The process has started if my recent buying experience is anything to go by.

    How far will they fall? I see no reason why an expensive to maintain and not very useable car should fall into the 20k/ 50k region. After all, what did the halo cars of the 80s drop down to before rising in the current market?

    Not only that but what price the likes of say a Koenisegg or any other tiny maker, when the company has gone out of business?

    There is a well established cycle in assets like classic cars and for certain that will continue in future. Halo cars will be affected just as much as the vanilla. Maybe more so when they lose their halo and are replaced

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    Quote Originally Posted by birdseye View Post
    Its an interesting issue, analogue vs digital, but its one where I suspect your answer depends on your age. I'm old by the standard here at 73, so I grew up with such engineering icons as the BMC A series engine in the Mini Cooper S. Points, distributor even cross ply tyres, but cars you could enjoy - if that is you were handy with the spanners and knew how to do a decoke. I understand greasy bits but I dont understand ECUs and code to me is something that MI5 use.

    This time round I was replacing the F type that followed the 430. The F isnt a supercar, though it is a much better sportscar than many give it credit for. But its full of modern electronics and features that are irrelevant to the progress of the car down the road and were there just for people who like bells and whistles. The netflix / gamer generation. And it wasnt "special" in the way that a Ferrari is.

    So what to do this time round. My budget was £200k down , but £100k preferred, so I dallied with McLaren, I tried Aston, and Ferraris both California and 458. Somehow most of them seemed "too much" and far too complicated so I looked at 308s , 328, 355,s which were far too basic. And Evora and Morgan Plus 8 ( the BMW engined one). What grabbed me in the end was a 360 manual which seemed to me to be just at that point where enough technology had come along to make cars reliable but not so much that the car morphs into a gaming machine. Its not as analogue as say an E type is, but its a very different simpler machine to a McLaren or a 488.

    And there was another issue. I just cant see the point in paying extra money for more power that I can ever use on the public roads without fear of accident or jail. Just when could I use the 1000hp of the Tributo?

    But as I said right at the beginning, I reckon its an age thing. Just as you like the music of your youth so you are comfortable with the technology of your youth.
    Interesting...you have 22 years on me, but I feel the same! When I grew up it was also the same, we certainly didn't have electronic black boxes with loads of sensors; and living in the middle of nowhere you had to be able to fix whatever your transport was! I do remember some long walks in winter when the skidoo broke down.

    Perhaps in years between our relative ages car tech didn't really move on that much and its only really in the last 15 odd years that we have jumped to needing a laptop to do diagnostics rather than your ear and a hammer!!

    Personally I like to be able to fix most things on a car, especially my "toy" car so likely limit myself to similar cars as you mention, especially being IT phobic! There is no denying the modern technology is amazing; but it doesn't do a lot for me. I know its not the same, but whilst some people complain at how heavy the 348 steering is at low speed, I find it no problem, and the steering at speed is amazing; whilst the assisted steering on my 5 series just leaves me cold as its crap on B roads and really noticeable on motorways with gusty side winds! Similarly with a loan Levante, suspension down our lanes was doing all sorts of odd things!

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    Quote Originally Posted by A348W View Post
    Interesting...you have 22 years on me, but I feel the same! When I grew up it was also the same, we certainly didn't have electronic black boxes with loads of sensors; and living in the middle of nowhere you had to be able to fix whatever your transport was! I do remember some long walks in winter when the skidoo broke down.

    Perhaps in years between our relative ages car tech didn't really move on that much and its only really in the last 15 odd years that we have jumped to needing a laptop to do diagnostics rather than your ear and a hammer!!

    Personally I like to be able to fix most things on a car, especially my "toy" car so likely limit myself to similar cars as you mention, especially being IT phobic! There is no denying the modern technology is amazing; but it doesn't do a lot for me. I know its not the same, but whilst some people complain at how heavy the 348 steering is at low speed, I find it no problem, and the steering at speed is amazing; whilst the assisted steering on my 5 series just leaves me cold as its crap on B roads and really noticeable on motorways with gusty side winds! Similarly with a loan Levante, suspension down our lanes was doing all sorts of odd things!
    +1 to the sentiment here.

    The thing is I want my Ďtransportí, my daily, to be reliable, comfy, not overly bothered if itís engaging, just want it to get me from A to B with the minimum of fuss........... but thatís not what Iím after in my toy. With that I want to tinker and so breaking now and then is fine, I want to be engaged, couldnít care about comfort and getting from A to B is secondary to the journey between the two, in fact itís often A to A just for the pure enjoyment of it.

    I get the likes of Mod just wanting ever better engineered cars which never break and are capable of more and more regardless of the driverís skill and as a consequence do more and more for the driver. But itís not the only way and thereíll always be those who value a more Ďmechanicalí experience. I think thatís evident in Boxerís article and its findings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nosevi View Post
    I stand by what I said earlier that 430s will become more expensive to run than older models as they themselves age, and the the average punter can do more themselves on an older car than a newer one. Just don't think the economics stack up in your favour on this one, Mod
    Not sue about this. The problem I have found on older cars in the past isnt the maintenance of the "greasy bits" but the availability of things like door handles window rubbers, light lenses etc. You can almost always get someone who can replace major mechanical components but the cosmetic items are a different matter.

    That said the risk going forward is the electronics. In say another 20 years time, how will you do if you need another ECU for a 355 or an abs for a 360 let alone the sensors used for all sorts of functions. So maybe you have to go back to completely analogue cars like the 308 to be confident of longer term maintenance. Or maybe buy an E type where anything you need is being re -manufactured because the numbers on the market make it viable to do so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by birdseye View Post
    Not sue about this. The problem I have found on older cars in the past isnt the maintenance of the "greasy bits" but the availability of things like door handles window rubbers, light lenses etc. You can almost always get someone who can replace major mechanical components but the cosmetic items are a different matter.

    That said the risk going forward is the electronics. In say another 20 years time, how will you do if you need another ECU for a 355 or an abs for a 360 let alone the sensors used for all sorts of functions. So maybe you have to go back to completely analogue cars like the 308 to be confident of longer term maintenance. Or maybe buy an E type where anything you need is being re -manufactured because the numbers on the market make it viable to do so.
    You’d be amazed what you can find out there. Certainly in ‘348 world’ we have a facility known as the 348 parts interchange - it lists hundreds of parts (especially electronics) which are used on more everyday models. Need a new MAF? No probs just find an old Saab being broken. Same goes for just about every sensor on the car. There are actually companies that specialise is rebuilding ECUs from this era should yours break, they’re simple enough to be able to do that quite easily. And just about every cosmetic trim part can now be 3d printed if you can’t find a 348 or 355 (if it has the same part) being broken. None of these things are really a problem any more. But when something breaks the older cars are simply easier and generally cheaper to fix. If my roof ‘mechanism’ goes will it be cheaper or more expensive to fix than a 430 or 458 Spider? How about the suspension? Or steering system? Sorry, but I don’t think you’re correct here. In 25 years the cost of keeping a 430 or 458 on the road will far outweigh a 328 or 348.

    Just to add, one thing that has traditionally been tough to find replacements for, as you say, is light lenses. Fog light lenses on a 348 are notoriously difficult to find and they are so low down they can be hit by stones and crack. But now if you know where to look you can find replacements:

    https://replicaparts.co.uk/collectio...-16-640-16-641

    As these things become tough to find companies tend to step in and make a replacement. In this case I think it’s the original manufacturer making them again? They can because the parts are so simple. My guess is replacing a broken headlight on a 430 is going to cost you more than this? I’ll be honest, I don’t know that but I suspect it might.
    Last edited by Nosevi; 18-08-2019 at 04:17 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nosevi View Post
    Youíd be amazed what you can find out there. Certainly in Ď348 worldí we have a facility known as the 348 parts interchange - it lists hundreds of parts (especially electronics) which are used on more everyday models. Need a new MAF? No probs just find an old Saab being broken. Same goes for just about every sensor on the car. There are actually companies that specialise is rebuilding ECUs from this era should yours break, theyíre simple enough to be able to do that quite easily. And just about every cosmetic trim part can now be 3d printed if you canít find a 348 or 355 (if it has the same part) being broken. None of these things are really a problem any more. But when something breaks the older cars are simply easier and generally cheaper to fix. If my roof Ďmechanismí goes will it be cheaper or more expensive to fix than a 430 or 458 Spider? How about the suspension? Or steering system? Sorry, but I donít think youíre correct here. In 25 years the cost of keeping a 430 or 458 on the road will far outweigh a 328 or 348.

    Just to add, one thing that has traditionally been tough to find replacements for, as you say, is light lenses. Fog light lenses on a 348 are notoriously difficult to find and they are so low down they can be hit by stones and crack. But now if you know where to look you can find replacements:

    https://replicaparts.co.uk/collectio...-16-640-16-641

    As these things become tough to find companies tend to step in and make a replacement. In this case I think itís the original manufacturer making them again? They can because the parts are so simple. My guess is replacing a broken headlight on a 430 is going to cost you more than this? Iíll be honest, I donít know that but I suspect it might.
    Iím off to buy a 3D printer so I can knock out a new 355

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