Analysing 360 vs 430 Fiorano track times..

[360trev]

Fiorano times really are quite pointless without context and are just an attempt to show 'progress' by PR and marketing departments on their own. They also allow newer car owners pub room bragging rights but most don't really understand what makes a car lap faster.

The basic rule is that any car can be substantially improved to work on a track compared to its road going brethen. Most of the track day boys know this all to well. Lets take the following as an example;

1.17.00 Ferrari 360 GT
1.18.90 Ferrari 360 N-GT (2003)
1.21.00 Ferrari 360 Challenge
1.22.40 Ferrari 360 Challenge (2003)
1.25.00 Ferrari 430 Scuderia
1.28.00 Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale
1.28.50 Ferrari 430
1.31.50 Ferrari 360 Modena

All 8 model variants use essentially the same 136Kg Alcoa aluminium framed chassis. The +90bhp power difference between the 360 and 430 adds just ~1-2 seconds to the lap time with the E-diff and improved CF brakes contributing ~1 second more (3 seconds total). The track focused modifications done on the CS compared to the Modena gain 3.5 seconds despite the CS having a 65bhp deficit. Ferrari could have made a HGTC handling package for the 360 Modena, perhaps thats what Ferrari set out to do and then realized they could make it into its own outright model? Who knows...

The Modena and the Strad even use the same suspension dampers (same part number). The main difference from a track perspective is that the set-up is more biased towards handling rather than road use.

If you want your car to handle better on any given track (e.g. Fiorano), first thing to do is to fit sticky, wider rubber (Strad & Scud both use Pirelli Corsa's finest). Second is to stiffen the spring and damper rates and lower the centre of gravity by simply winding the collar on the adjustible strut platforms lower and resetting the geometry for track use (e.g. more negative camber). All the Carbon Fibre garnish being added is just that, it looks great and helps the detailing of the car but its not that significant on track times. Even the -80Kg's weight only accounts for as little as 1 second on these Fiorano times. Still hugely significant nonetheless but its the spring rates and alignment that are the key to making the car feel so much better.

So, Is weight loss what defines the strad? Erm, not really...
Just look at a typical 360 Strad, everyone loves to reel off -110Kg's weight loss over the Modena but thats not really the reality. How many Strads came without a radio, without speakers, with lexan side windows, etc. ? Most of them! Typical Strads are optioned with normal glass side windows with electric motors and have a stereo, the weight loss is more like ~70-80kg's. Factor in that if the Modena had the CF seats option the weight difference can be as little as 50kg's (less than 8 stone!). Thats like having a small woman in your passenger seat yet nobody would say a Strad handles like a Modena when your carrying a light passenger? No, its the suspension and tyre changes which REALLY make the biggest difference to handling.

Improve Lap times around Fiorano - What makes the biggest real world differences?
What's interesting is the cost vs performance thing. Take a boggo 2nd hand £60k Ferrari 360M with the carbon seats option, fit challenge wheels and wider Pirelli Corsa tyres, track focused wheel alignment specs, thicker adjustible anti-roll bars with +30% uprated (stiffer) springs and track 'red stuff' brake pads. Just watch those times come tumbling down.

I would be surprised if you didn't get a 1.29.5. (down by 2 seconds - only 1 1/2 seconds off the strad time - all without losing a single carpet). If you do the 'strad thing' and shed 80kg's you'll gain another second. Your now at 1:28.5 (f430 lap times) and only 1/2 a second off the Strads time and you haven't even messed with aerodynamics or fitted carbon brakes. People may refute that this is possible but really its just basic handling/grip/weight distribution that effects these times. Thats why it always amazes me that Ferrari can nudge up the price of a 430S to 190K (fully carbon optioned up!) quoting lap times as the justification yet in reality its just electronic trickery switching settings.

Just my 2p's worth...

[Kurgen]

Nice thread!

Agree, that sticky rubber and suspension lower the lap time.

In comparing the 430F1 vs 430 Scud.. the very modest power increase and lighter weight of the Scud, could be negated with a good geo setup and sticky rubber on the 430.

Without p+ssing off Scud buyers (I would have one if cash and availability dictated) I reckon the changes are mainly cosmetic.

I take it the Scud will come with the Pirelli Corsa system tyre, as oppposed to the Corsa track tyre (quite a difference). Not sure what tyres a boggo 430 comes with?

[KenC]

Not sure what tyres a boggo 430 comes with?

Mine came with P Zero Rossos.

[360trev]

Nice thread!

Agree, that sticky rubber and suspension lower the lap time.

In comparing the 430F1 vs 430 Scud.. the very modest power increase and lighter weight of the Scud, could be negated with a good geo setup and sticky rubber on the 430.

Without p+ssing off Scud buyers (I would have one if cash and availability dictated) I reckon the changes are mainly cosmetic.

I take it the Scud will come with the Pirelli Corsa system tyre, as oppposed to the Corsa track tyre (quite a difference). Not sure what tyres a boggo 430 comes with?

Rob, I was amazed how much body roll the stock 360 has as standard. This is a very blatent attempt to make the car more accessible to novice owners on the road - still fun and makes the car very progressive but that doesn't equate to fastest lap times. Without the body roll being present and geometry set up with a tendancy to wash out with understeer on fast corners a lot of owners who aren't that experienced would come unstuck. I can already see it now, more sporty setting would result in many more cars ending up in a hedge or something.

Once you've done a couple of track days and understand how to control your car you can make it handle like a 360CS with realtively little costs involved. The bodyroll on the 360 is very simply eliminated with either challenge roll bars (or even buy the £150 items from the 360CS). Biggest improvement is a set of custom rated springs (+20 to +30% uprated) for less than £850. A whole geo setup can be done on a circuit by one of the Challenge race teams (e.g. like JMH Ferrari (http://www.j-m-h.co.uk/) for less than £1,500 all in.

A set of sticky wider rubber (the strad wheel widths are the same as the stock modena wheels, just +1" to 19's in height) and its less than £2,500 to transform the handling. Add a set of fast road (higher coefficient of friction) pads and the whole handling transformation is less than £3,000.

Thats nearly less than the price of a single carbon discs

[Kurgen]

Mine came with P Zero Rossos.

Interesting!

I will be looking very closely at tyre options, once mine arrives.

If the MPSC cups are not available, then maybe Toyo will produce the R888 in the correct size.

The 888s are a fantastic all round fast road/track tyre. Ran these on my modified 996GT2 and was able to get 2 days at Spa and 1 day at the Ring out of a set. Very good tyre and not expensive, compared to cups.

[Kurgen]

Rob, I was amazed how much body roll the stock 360 has as standard. This is a very blatent attempt to make the car more accessible to novice owners on the road - still fun and makes the car very progressive but that doesn't equate to fastest lap times. Without the body roll being present and geometry set up with a tendancy to wash out with understeer on fast corners a lot of owners who aren't that experienced would come unstuck. I can already see it now, more sporty setting would result in many more cars ending up in a hedge or something.

Once you've done a couple of track days and understand how to control your car you can make it handle like a 360CS with realtively little costs involved. The bodyroll on the 360 is very simply eliminated with either challenge roll bars (or even buy the £150 items from the 360CS). Biggest improvement is a set of custom rated springs (+20 to +30% uprated) for less than £850. A whole geo setup can be done on a circuit by one of the Challenge race teams (e.g. like JMH Ferrari (http://www.j-m-h.co.uk/) for less than £1,500 all in.

A set of sticky wider rubber (the strad wheel widths are the same as the stock modena wheels, just +1" to 19's in height) and its less than £2,500 to transform the handling. Add a set of fast road (higher coefficient of friction) pads and the whole handling transformation is less than £3,000.

Thats nearly less than the price of a single carbon discs

Would love to know what geo setups are available using stock suspension.
I use a track/race specialist at Silverstone called Fearnsport, they have worked on my GT3/RS/GT2 in the past, and will be giving the 430 to them to have a look at and play with.

Rob

[360trev]

Would love to know what geo setups are available using stock suspension.
I use a track/race specialist at Silverstone called Fearnsport, they have worked on my GT3/RS/GT2 in the past, and will be giving the 430 to them to have a look at and play with.

Rob

Just a set of fast road pads, sticky rubber and fast road geo will already make a huge difference. Probably only 2 seconds off the 430S pace then which on real roads equates to virtually nothing in it.

[Hud]

Mine came with P Zero Rossos.

Bridgestones on mine

[KenC]

Bridgestones on mine

Your's was a wobbly convertible so it needed different rubber .

Seriously, was there not a lot of talk not around teh time of the 430 launch about the best tyre choice for the 430? I can't remember the conclusion though. Perhaps they started on Bridgestones and decided P Zeros were better.

[Hud]

Your's was a wobbly convertible so it needed different rubber .

Seriously, was there not a lot of talk not around teh time of the 430 launch about the best tyre choice for the 430? I can't remember the conclusion though. Perhaps they started on Bridgestones and decided P Zeros were better.

Yes i recall something or other about one being better than t'other Can't remember what was what either......