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Thread: 599GTB - Modificato Project

  1. #161
    sssdu01 is offline No I'm Spartacus Committee Member
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    Check the sensors to see if they earth through the engine or separate cables (you should be able to look at the connector on the sensors to see how many wires are connected, then have a look at the actual wiring loom to see if all the sensors share a common section of loom and a common earth. It only needs a little bit of corrosion under an earthing lug to cause no end of intermittent and very difficult to find faults, as they can be unrelated sensors. Good luck sorting this out

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    Modificato is offline Nowhere to put the shopping -The Ferrari F40 Club Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by sssdu01 View Post
    Check the sensors to see if they earth through the engine or separate cables (you should be able to look at the connector on the sensors to see how many wires are connected, then have a look at the actual wiring loom to see if all the sensors share a common section of loom and a common earth. It only needs a little bit of corrosion under an earthing lug to cause no end of intermittent and very difficult to find faults, as they can be unrelated sensors. Good luck sorting this out
    Have added that to the work list...will update

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    Default 599GTB - Modificato Project

    Quote Originally Posted by sssdu01 View Post
    Check the sensors to see if they earth through the engine or separate cables (you should be able to look at the connector on the sensors to see how many wires are connected, then have a look at the actual wiring loom to see if all the sensors share a common section of loom and a common earth. It only needs a little bit of corrosion under an earthing lug to cause no end of intermittent and very difficult to find faults, as they can be unrelated sensors. Good luck sorting this out
    I had a problem with the main earth from the battery kill switch (which actually breaks the negative not the positive) where it connected to the chassis.
    I used to get ASR in the lcd display on cranking but after cleaning the earth and strapping it to the next connector effectively doubling the surface area Iíve never seen an issue.

    Wherever I come across an earth on the chassis I now clean it up and put a bit of silicone grease on the connections.
    Last edited by Mike01606; 17-01-2018 at 03:13 PM.

  4. #164
    sssdu01 is offline No I'm Spartacus Committee Member
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    I used to work for a living many years ago and this sometimes involved a soldering iron so know my way around electronics. You can find that corrosion under an earthing lug or connector can create a crude diode (this is an electrical thing that acts like a one way valve allowing current to pass in one direction only) . This can have weird effects on the electrics and can be difficult to fault find as they can pass a continuity test, but still be the cause of the fault. However its easy to see visually as the corrosion will have built up a layer of oxidization (typically white or blue powder depending on the metals). Also on an aluminium car if you have a loose earth that often gets wet the electrical current can cause electrolysis which can replace your chassis with some white powder that looks like Daz washing powder - you then have a bad earth problem.

    The electrolysis will remove any plating on the electrical connectors and you can then end up with even more galvanic corrosion (as the steel lug that previously had zinc on it, is further away from aluminium on the galvanic scale) this will literally eat a hole in the aluminium

    I tend to clean up any earth connectors I disturb, or find to be corroded (Use a pure brass wire brush as a steel one will leave particles of steel on everything which you really dont want), then coat them in Vaseline and effectively leave a blob of the stuff all over the whole assembly. This keeps out water etc and will arrest any further corrosion.

    Thats why I have a pot of Vaseline in the workshop ..... honest

    p.s. Sorry for a science lesson but I thought it might help anyone trying to understand why you can get very odd electrical faults.

  5. #165
    Modificato is offline Nowhere to put the shopping -The Ferrari F40 Club Member
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    No problem - great knowledge sharing.

    Anyway....

    Here is the full list of error codes we have had since we finished in Brescia last May

    P1033 Rear Lambda Sensor Cylinders 10,11,12 No activity
    P1037 Rear Lambda Sensor Cylinders 7,8,9 No activity
    P1134 Right Hand Bank Environment sensor error
    P1136 Left Hand Bank Additional Air Self Learning error
    P1139 Additional Air Self Learning Cylinders 7,8,9 No activity
    P1277 Check heating of front RHB Lambda
    P1281 Check heating of front LHB Lambda
    P1439 Left Hand Bank Secondary air injection incorrect flow
    P1444 Secondary air injection system Cylinders 7,8,9 incorrect flow
    P1454 Protection activation for LH bank catalytic converter

    Because of the time it takes between some abnormal condition being detected AND the ECU actually throwing and error you have the classic opportunity for bogus cause and effect thinking. The only real symptom of any kind we had to go on was the inability to get fuel in without a lot of click-back from the nozzle. This is the classic indicator of issues in the Evaporation control system which is a mandatory emission feature for modern cars. We suspected the charcoal canister, pipes and valves of the system but the EVAP system has its own error codes such as ‘Minor leak EVAP system’ which is the actual code you get when the fuel cap is not on right.

    We contrasted the Maserati policy of changing these every 25k miles as a service item vs. The Ferrari policy of never and went ahead to replace the canister and the solenoid valves in the system. On removal of the canister it weighed in at 2.2kg vs. The new part at 1.85kg - gives an idea of the saturation level. I didn’t want to pay for an autopsy and so also decided to change out all the O2 and all the lambda sensors. This could been seen as overkill but the car is 10 years old this year and any intermittent problem I wanted to eliminate possibly bad sensors. Testing them is pretty useless now as that generation of Bosch sensors can test good but have intermittent failures. We also checked that part of the loom and earths as suggested. No symptoms there.

    We bolted it all back up and test drove it - all good - I then suggested a longer test drive as it had always taken a fair number of miles to error.

    Result?

    CEL again.

    This time only one code

    P1139 again Additional air (mass meter) self learning Cylinders 7,8,9

    Luckily there was a ‘spare’ mass air meter in the workshop, so it was tried and then we swapped them over and we found our issue. Two Long test drives have been done with no CEL so far so we may have nailed it.

    It is well known that the 599 service procedure for the amount of engine oil required and checking was incorrect and although we know 100% that has been done correctly in my ownership it likely hasn’t in the past and could have caught up with the car.

    Anyway keeping it real, with the new brakes, fault finding, parts and labour, if I had been paying full whack this last 12months would have cost me north of £15k for 3500 miles, so anyone taking the V12 plunge forewarned is forarmed.

    What I have learned so far is:-

    599’s are sensitive to:-

    TPMS battery life and sensors need to be genuine Ferrari - they last 8 years ish
    Same life with the main battery
    Brakes last 30k then cost BIG money to replace.
    Every set of CCM’s for sale second hand are done unless you can weigh them yourself or can see they are SICOM refurbished assume they are DONE. If you get brakes from a broken car assume they are done unless you can weigh them. You get -100g wear limit for the fronts and -75g for the rears. Thickness measures are still being used by unscrupulous eBayers as a measure of wear. It is wrong and they are selling dangerous items. Fair enough if sold as a corey to have refurbed - no problem. But claiming discs are 60% done when they are 100% is never acceptable. Stuffing a fellow member of this forum is conduct unbecoming of a gentleman.
    Suspension components require an overhaul on UK roads every 20-25k
    Zero’ing the stored wear level on the CCM brake s can be done by unscrupulous indie’s with an SD3 hence the franchised dealers have a procedure to make it impossible for their techs to do so.
    Front parking sensors are sensitive to stone strikes and cause havoc with various error messages when damaged.
    The EVAP system really be a service item as per Maserati
    Air mass meters get damaged by oil overfilling - make sure your servicing outfit has the correct (bulletin) procedure the manual is wrong.

    The good news is if you are buying a 599 look for these items having been attended to and ask for all receipts and documents. Many of these cars were passed on through multiple owners and each had their experiences soured by the oil and contaminated sensors issue recurring. The upshot of all this is that otherwise this is a peach of car for the money now and some clear knowledge about what to expect and avoid should make it easy to drive a good bargain. Full inspection as always and the negotiate on the work that needs doing.

    Anyway Entry is in for the cars third Mille Miglia Tribute so fingers crossed we will be in action again and having a trouble free event.
    Last edited by Modificato; 23-01-2018 at 08:17 PM.

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modificato View Post
    l
    For your reference here is what £2000 (bolts plus tool and labour buys you)
    Attachment 151604
    I will of course be sure to devalue my car accordingly for fitting non-standard optional parts.
    Weíre these from ACER Racing in LA?

    Iím in the US next week and they can ship them to me in 48 hours for £250.
    They are specíd as aerospace grade Ti but Iím guessing they along with others source from the Far East (I asked and they forgot to answer that question so Yes) and Iíve had some bad experience of working with these type of Tier 2 companies.
    These a critical components and you need to sure they are what they claim.

    May be worth a punt though and get a couple of spares for testing.

  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike01606 View Post
    Weíre these from ACER Racing in LA?

    Iím in the US next week and they can ship them to me in 48 hours for £250.
    They are specíd as aerospace grade Ti but Iím guessing they along with others source from the Far East (I asked and they forgot to answer that question so Yes) and Iíve had some bad experience of working with these type of Tier 2 companies.
    These a critical components and you need to sure they are what they claim.

    May be worth a punt though and get a couple of spares for testing.
    No they were direct from the manufacturer in China where a colleague has been helping set it up and assure quality etc.

    I can give you the source plant by PM but these days there are a lot of decent manufacturing facilities so odds of not getting what you paid for are very low. If itís a reputable dealer in the US I would trust the product. I have the lab test result of mine and based on the volumes they are doing I would suggest they are supplying most of the US aftermarket now.

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    Mixed bag update.
    Got accepted again for the Mille Miglia but despite changing the evap canister, solenoids and lambda sensors the car threw a CEL some twenty miles after.

    The good news is itís different codes:-
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    So it seems the mostly likely issue is with the MAFs.
    With the notorious oil over-filling issue back in period the service bulletin update didnít arrive until relatively recently so MAFís could and do experience shortened lives even though of late the correct procedure has been followed. Letís see

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    Quote Originally Posted by Modificato View Post
    So it seems the mostly likely issue is with the MAFs.
    With the notorious oil over-filling issue back in period the service bulletin update didnít arrive until relatively recently so MAFís could and do experience shortened lives even though of late the correct procedure has been followed. Letís see
    My second 599 was os overfilled by a Ferrari tech on a road trip it came out of the MAFs into the airboxes then out of the front wing side vents, puddling on the floor behind the front wheels, needed 2 new MAF's and air filters.

    IIRC the revised oil level procedure came out around 2009 however my third 599 was overfilled by the dealer at service in 2012 causing the failure of one of the MAF's, unfortunately they forgot the MAFs serve the opposing side of the engine so it ended up needing 2 in the end as they replaced the working one first time!!

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