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Thread: 360 Manifold problems?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MalcH View Post
    . and it was always "Whilst it is out..."
    The first part of your post, Malc, sort of makes my point - the engine coming out on a 355 (and Testarossa, 348, Mondial T etc) is less of a cost implication if you're using a garage to service your car, more of an inconvenience/barrier for the DIYer. Regarding the "Whilst it is out..... " stuff, I guess the question is whether the extra preventative maintenance is OTT or a good idea? At the end of the day it's a choice thing.

    My point to Mark was simply that, from an ownership perspective, unless you DIY service your car including majors his comment regarding not talking about belt changes on 360s and 355s in the say way as it's no biggie on a 360 (the implication being that it is on a 355) doesn't really hold water. Whether the engine comes out or stays in, if the cost is the same, why should an owner care?

  2. #12
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    mon the fish is offline Frankenstein's monster - The Ferrari F430 Committee Member
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    I have no dog in the fight of cost of engine-out services, but I was under the impression that a 360 belt change was circa 4 hours, and a 348/355 one circa 24 hours? Happy to be corrected if wrong.

    That said, looking at the prices quoted on the links above, why is the 360 so relatively dear for a major compared to a 355? Taking the Supercar Clinic as an example, belt changes only cost either 750 (355) or 380 (360) - seems reasonable enough for the difference in labour. But there's only 50 difference in the cost of a major plus belts - 1400 for 355, 1350 for 360.

    Is there much more to do on a 360 major, or are prices being held artificially high compared to that of the 355?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mon the fish View Post
    I have no dog in the fight of cost of engine-out services, but I was under the impression that a 360 belt change was circa 4 hours, and a 348/355 one circa 24 hours? Happy to be corrected if wrong.

    That said, looking at the prices quoted on the links above, why is the 360 so relatively dear for a major compared to a 355? Taking the Supercar Clinic as an example, belt changes only cost either 750 (355) or 380 (360) - seems reasonable enough for the difference in labour. But there's only 50 difference in the cost of a major plus belts - 1400 for 355, 1350 for 360.

    Is there much more to do on a 360 major, or are prices being held artificially high compared to that of the 355?
    As the cars get newer the parts tend to get more expensive and more complicated. So, sure, just changing the belts on a 360 is cheaper than on an engine out car . but you never just change the belts, you do a major at the same time so the cost is evened out and so it makes very little difference.

    Take either end of the spectrum so to speak - a 348 is the simplest engine out V8 and a F430 is the first V8 where you don't even have to change the belt. A belt change on a 348 is therefore infinitely more expensive than on a F430 but as pretty much everything else is more expensive to fix or replace on a 430 than on a 348 does that really matter? As the newer cars get older themselves they will, and in some cases are, becoming more expensive to maintain than the older cars. That was always bound to happen - at the end of the day replacing a magnetorheological shock absorber is going to cost more than a spring.

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    I agree with the above and I do get Pete's point. My feeling was how can an engine out task cost on a 355 cost the same as an engine in task on a 360. I know it's no big deal to drop the engine on a 348 or 355 but it's still extra work. On the 360 I guess they remove the seats and a bit of carpet but I simply can't see how the jobs can be comparable (unless work is being carried out on the earlier car meaning the motor is already being removed?!). How can the earlier cars not involve more labour?

    Edit: The above post appeared before I'd finished typing. Again, fair enough, but we were talking about belts from the original F430 comments :o)
    Last edited by Kyodo; 27-02-2020 at 05:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyodo View Post
    I agree with the above and I do get Pete's point. My feeling was how can an engine out task cost on a 355 cost the same as an engine in task on a 360. I know it's no big deal to drop the engine on a 348 or 355 but it's still extra work. On the 360 I guess they remove the seats and a bit of carpet but I simply can't see how the jobs can be comparable (unless work is being carried out on the earlier car meaning the motor is already being removed?!). How can the earlier cars not involve more labour?

    Edit: The above post appeared before I'd finished typing. Again, fair enough, but we were talking about belts from the original F430 comments :o)
    Copied re the edit

    Part of the reason can sometimes be the labour rates - I pay lower rates at my main dealer than owners of the newer cars. That's partly to entice owners of older cars back to the main dealers whereas newer cars tend to be at the main dealers anyway, but I've also been told that tooling and diagnostic kit needed for newer cars is not needed for the older tipos and so they charge less. Not sure if that's applicable to 360s or not.

    All of this does slightly relate to the original thread and talk about 430 and (or not) 360 manifolds. As time has gone on the cars do get more complicated and the engineering boundaries are pushed further. While the engineers are clever guys and normally the cars end up becoming more and not less reliable, when they do break the newer cars tend to be more expensive to fix. Obviously the payoff is the fantastic performance you get with the newer cars, the 'flip side' is the DIYableness of the older Tipos - fixed my HVAC which had gone haywire this week, I used a Philips head screwdriver and some contact spray...... All good as far as I'm concerned, new or old, just depends on what you're looking for

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nosevi View Post
    Copied re the edit

    Part of the reason can sometimes be the labour rates - I pay lower rates at my main dealer than owners of the newer cars. That's partly to entice owners of older cars back to the main dealers whereas newer cars tend to be at the main dealers anyway, but I've also been told that tooling and diagnostic kit needed for newer cars is not needed for the older tipos and so they charge less. Not sure if that's applicable to 360s or not.

    All of this does slightly relate to the original thread and talk about 430 and (or not) 360 manifolds. As time has gone on the cars do get more complicated and the engineering boundaries are pushed further. While the engineers are clever guys and normally the cars end up becoming more and not less reliable, when they do break the newer cars tend to be more expensive to fix. Obviously the payoff is the fantastic performance you get with the newer cars, the 'flip side' is the DIYableness of the older Tipos - fixed my HVAC which had gone haywire this week, I used a Philips head screwdriver and some contact spray...... All good as far as I'm concerned, new or old, just depends on what you're looking for
    As evidenced by a 458 or 488, I cant recall, having its engine dropped to chase a sensor fault Interesting enough, they come out the same as 348/355 etc. in its respective subframe so whilst wrapped in wire and probed with sensors, you do get back to basics at some stage

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyodo View Post
    I agree with the above and I do get Pete's point. My feeling was how can an engine out task cost on a 355 cost the same as an engine in task on a 360. I know it's no big deal to drop the engine on a 348 or 355 but it's still extra work. On the 360 I guess they remove the seats and a bit of carpet but I simply can't see how the jobs can be comparable (unless work is being carried out on the earlier car meaning the motor is already being removed?!). How can the earlier cars not involve more labour?

    Edit: The above post appeared before I'd finished typing. Again, fair enough, but we were talking about belts from the original F430 comments :o)
    I imagine there will also be some time saving on the other serviceable parts when the engine is out on the 348 / 355.

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