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Thread: New Boutique Hypercar Manufacturers

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    Default New Boutique Hypercar Manufacturers

    Just posted a new blog on the new Boutique Hypercar Manufacturers 2021 Outlook:

    https://karenable.com/boutique-hyper...-outlook-2021/

    Comments? Who do you think will make it? Favorite car?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boxer View Post
    Just posted a new blog on the new Boutique Hypercar Manufacturers 2021 Outlook:

    https://karenable.com/boutique-hyper...-outlook-2021/

    Comments? Who do you think will make it? Favorite car?
    Interesting read.

    We get many of these projects across our board room and I can tell you that for every one on your list there are five more that donít get beyond the basic marketing model / pipe dream. Given that, all of these are the last throw dice because we and the rest of the industry are all working on very well funded electric hyper cars. Also we met with one of the projects on here recently in order to help dig it out of a bit of a hole. Also somewhat more importantly the current customer sentiment is that post COVID it is going to take some big guts and perhaps somewhat of a hermetically sealed social micro climate to be seen in a HyperCar that is not virtue signalling on at least one front of its package.

    These are the last burning embers of pure Dino juice cars and they already look like last century to the people making serious money in the current.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Modificato View Post
    Interesting read.

    We get many of these projects across our board room and I can tell you that for every one on your list there are five more that don’t get beyond the basic marketing model / pipe dream. Given that, all of these are the last throw dice because we and the rest of the industry are all working on very well funded electric hyper cars. Also we met with one of the projects on here recently in order to help dig it out of a bit of a hole. Also somewhat more importantly the current customer sentiment is that post COVID it is going to take some big guts and perhaps somewhat of a hermetically sealed social micro climate to be seen in a HyperCar that is not virtue signalling on at least one front of its package.

    These are the last burning embers of pure Dino juice cars and they already look like last century to the people making serious money in the current.
    And yet more and more manufacturers are beginning to see a slightly different future, Mod, with other options running along side electric. When you say "the rest of the industry are all working on........." do you mean 'all'? If so why do more and more manufacturers seem to be looking at other options as well? Seems slightly mad to do that if they're all only interested in electric vehicles.

    In 2020 VW pretty much nailed their colours to the mast behind a transition to fully electric as soon as possible in opposition to Porsche and other German car manufacturers who were looking at other options, think they said any other approach was ridiculous or words to that effect. In 2021 VW joined with Bosch and shell in developing petrol currently made from 33% renewables. Odd thing for a company to do if it still firmly believed that efuels weren't going to form part of the future

    I still think the picture is changing and those who almost blindly keep marching on down the 'everything will go electric' road will end up being caught out. The list of manufacturers looking at other options that still achieve carbon neutral is growing .........
    Last edited by Nosevi; 27-06-2021 at 12:39 PM.

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    More sustainable fuels may have a place Pete but I'm unsure whether we'll be 'allowed' to take advantage. Sadly I'd imagine the might of freight, aerospace and the military will take the lion's share.

    Besides, with more manufacturer's throwing their weight behind full electric, their lobbyists will be working hard to screw any competition from IC engines, regardless of how clean they can be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyodo View Post
    More sustainable fuels may have a place Pete but I'm unsure whether we'll be 'allowed' to take advantage. Sadly I'd imagine the might of freight, aerospace and the military will take the lion's share.

    Besides, with more manufacturer's throwing their weight behind full electric, their lobbyists will be working hard to screw any competition from IC engines, regardless of how clean they can be.
    Weíll see.

    Tbh Iím happy for a large part to switch to electric as long as a choice remains. Iím far more bothered about being able to keep enjoying an ICE in my old Ferrari than I am about whether my wifeís local runabout is one day an EV.

    Thereís plenty of room for both (now that ICE can be 100% carbon neutral), it really doesnít need to be an either/or argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nosevi View Post
    And yet more and more manufacturers are beginning to see a slightly different future, Mod, with other options running along side electric. When you say "the rest of the industry are all working on........." do you mean 'all'? If so why do more and more manufacturers seem to be looking at other options as well? Seems slightly mad to do that if they're all only interested in electric vehicles.

    In 2020 VW pretty much nailed their colours to the mast behind a transition to fully electric as soon as possible in opposition to Porsche and other German car manufacturers who were looking at other options, think they said any other approach was ridiculous or words to that effect. In 2021 VW joined with Bosch and shell in developing petrol currently made from 33% renewables. Odd thing for a company to do if it still firmly believed that efuels weren't going to form part of the future

    I still think the picture is changing and those who almost blindly keep marching on down the 'everything will go electric' road will end up being caught out. The list of manufacturers looking at other options that still achieve carbon neutral is growing .........
    Electric for the next decade and a half - for the majority of cars

    Then (maybe) synthetic fuels after that.

    Some synthetic fuels in the shorter term but the airlines and haulage will get the first shout - our economies cannot afford to give that to passenger cars when electric / hybrid is already happening in increasing volume.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Modificato View Post
    Electric for the next decade and a half - for the majority of cars

    Then (maybe) synthetic fuels after that.

    Some synthetic fuels in the shorter term but the airlines and haulage will get the first shout - our economies cannot afford to give that to passenger cars when electric / hybrid is already happening in increasing volume.
    Is the absolutely vast infrastructure change necessary to switch to 100% electric from ICE really less expensive than scaling up synthetic fuel production? Looking at the changes necessary if we go down this route I’d say it’s not even close, especially with private companies currently taking on the scaling up right now as demand increases. With companies like Shell coming on board with synthetic fuel production I’d imagine it’ll accelerate rapidly and at limited cost to governments, unlike going 100% EV. And when you add in the loss of revenue as governments can no longer tax petrol sales with a switch to 100% EV I simply don’t buy that it’s a more financially viable route for governments to take, the maths simply doesn’t add up.

    The truth is, if it’s 100% electric production for 15 years then a switch back to ICE using carbon neutral synthetic efuels, then switching to 100% electric is largely pointless and the massive change in infrastructure isn’t exactly money well spent.

    With science now debunking the runaway climate catastrophe theory, while I think we should really get on with it and do what we can to reduce carbon down to nett zero, I think a more measured approach than blindly going one way then the other is a better idea.

    The truth is if you concentrated all your efforts now on carbon neutral efuels you’d be in a far better place in 25 years than if you jump to 100% electric with all the industry required to do that only to veer back to ICE in 15 years because it’s actually much more environmentally friendly. Legislate for a small amount of carbon capture in efuel production and we could actually start fixing some of the damage done in the last century or so rather than creating more with lithium strip mining and water pollution from EV production.
    Last edited by Nosevi; 28-06-2021 at 06:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nosevi View Post
    Is the absolutely vast infrastructure change necessary to switch to 100% electric from ICE really less expensive than scaling up synthetic fuel production? Looking at the changes necessary if we go down this route I’d say it’s not even close, especially with private companies currently taking on the scaling up right now as demand increases. With companies like Shell coming on board with synthetic fuel production I’d imagine it’ll accelerate rapidly and at limited cost to governments, unlike going 100% EV. And when you add in the loss of revenue as governments can no longer tax petrol sales with a switch to 100% EV I simply don’t buy that it’s a more financially viable route for governments to take, the maths simply doesn’t add up.

    The truth is, if it’s 100% electric production for 15 years then a switch back to ICE using carbon neutral synthetic efuels, then switching to 100% electric is largely pointless and the massive change in infrastructure isn’t exactly money well spent.

    With science now debunking the runaway climate catastrophe theory, while I think we should really get on with it and do what we can to reduce carbon down to nett zero, I think a more measured approach than blindly going one way then the other is a better idea.

    The truth is if you concentrated all your efforts now on carbon neutral efuels you’d be in a far better place in 25 years than if you jump to 100% electric with all the industry required to do that only to veer back to ICE in 15 years because it’s actually much more environmentally friendly. Legislate for a small amount of carbon capture in efuel production and we could actually start fixing some of the damage done in the last century or so rather than creating more with lithium strip mining and water pollution from EV production.
    lithium is now a red herring with graphene batteries coming to market 3X as energy dense and 100% environmentally sound production.

    Reality is there will not be enough synthetic fuel for all the commercial shipping / haulage and air transport which is the priority for the global economy. Most people in the developed world have an electric supply at home and most people don't need to do the NW500 every weekend.

    The simple fact is that for private cars turbo hybrids solve the problem and reaches the goals set for now and electricity solves the goals set for the majority of cars long term.

    What would most governments and people want?

    Access to cheap goods and groceries along with foreign travel or an ICE car?

    It's no contest and apart from the outliers the young are already moving to other transports.

    In my sons friendship groups they are the only one's who drive and now they don't do a lot of that anyway their friends get Ubers for each other or if they are off on a trip they rent via Turo

    There is an Enterprise car rental club outside our flats already and an electric charging point that went in last month.

    Developers will tell you residents want a gym and a pool now instead of parking spaces

    I really wish the future had been ICE based but it seems that ship has saved and that apart form the niche's the mass market is only going in one direction...
    Last edited by Modificato; 28-06-2021 at 08:55 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Modificato View Post
    lithium is now a red herring with graphene batteries coming to market 3X as energy dense and 100% environmentally sound production.

    Reality is there will not be enough synthetic fuel for all the commercial shipping / haulage and air transport priority for the economy. Most people have an electric supply at home and most people don't do the NW500 every weekend. The simple fact is that for private cars hybrid solves the problem now and electricity solves the problem long term.

    What would most governments and people want? Access to cheap goods and groceries and foreign holidays or an ICE car. its no contest and apart from the outliers the young are moving to other transports. In my sons friendship groups they are the only one who drive and now they don't do a lot of that anyway.
    It's simply not an either/or argument, Mod. Even manufacturers are starting to see this. In the last couple of days Mazda has said it's no longer looking at just pure EV in the future but to favour a mix of solutions, largely efuel powered hybrid for sports cars I think they said.

    EV is great in certain settings, mainly well off people living in cities, but other solutions work better in other places and for other people. For us a mix would work well and I don't think we're all that unusual.

    The more you talk about your sons friendship groups the less they sound like any youths anywhere around here and by that I mean the whole of Lincolnshire. I don't think you'd find anything different in the vast swathes of rural USA, the majority on Canada, large areas of Europe.......... You're being blinkered in your view - not everyone wants or needs the same solution.
    Last edited by Nosevi; 28-06-2021 at 09:13 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Modificato View Post
    lithium is now a red herring with graphene batteries coming to market 3X as energy dense and 100% environmentally sound production.

    Reality is there will not be enough synthetic fuel for all the commercial shipping / haulage and air transport which is the priority for the global economy.
    The first point is great, they really needed to sort that out or the whole point of EV was a red herring.

    The second point is nonsense - efuel is hydrocarbons made from combining carbon in the atmosphere and hydrogen which is the most abundant atom in the universe. I don't think we're going to run out of either

    I think we should just agree to differ and see what transpires. I think a mix of environmentally friendly solutions will win out with BEVs where that works, efuels most likely powering hybrid vehicles where it doesn't. We'll see who's right in time I guess
    Last edited by Nosevi; 28-06-2021 at 09:26 AM.

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