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599GTB or HGTE?

lotusk

New member
am seriously looking for a 599 but not sure to buy a GTB or the HGTE version

i'm not looking to track the car or anything and would say that comfort is more important than overall performance

should i try and find a HGTE model?...they are rare and i'm fussy as to the colour i want?
 
If comfort is your objective I think HGTE would be less attractive as my recollection is that it has louder exhaust and larger wheels so ride is less compliant - some good threads on Ferrarichat detailing the differences
 
It’s a clear cut choice on U.K. and most European roads.

The standard car is much better.

The HGTE is very perplexing to me and my seat of the pants. I auditioned them when I bought mine. It was a buyers market at the time so I tried many many cars.

The HGTE

It just doesn’t work as it should IMO.

Many of them are ‘collector’ cars so I don’t think they get used enough and suffer as a result that could be part of it but...

Being blunt they are modified in a max power magazine kind of way where feeling fast is more important than being fast.

The wheels and rubber are the culprit in my opinion.

I modified my 599 (see running report) to go down the road quickly for road events in Europe and when we looked at the stock set up on challenge wheels it drove better having wound back the coils and taking the tension out of the anti roll bars via some custom drop links. The HGTE pack just tightens it all up and is too crashy. The wheels and rubber struggle to follow the road when pushing on on anything but Stuttgart smooth asphalt.

I would swerve the HGTE unless you are a investment enthusiast or you like to feel thrilled and like you are driving on he edge a lower speeds, or you want to track drive it. On track it would be okay but my car on more modern rubber (Michelin homologated tyre) runs rings round the old rubber.

Evaluate your needs and if residuals are important as well as keeping it low mileage then HGTE - if you want a long legged GT for epic journeys and cross country thrills then the stock car all day long.
 
My memories seem to differ, I had 2 GTB's and 1 GTB convereted to HGTE, I found the latter's handling more consistant and the ride better than the std car :thumbsup:
 
My memories seem to differ, I had 2 GTB's and 1 GTB convereted to HGTE, I found the latter's handling more consistant and the ride better than the std car :thumbsup:

Strange - maybe they handle better when freshly set up - the one’s I auditioned were not good.
 
If you are based in Spain and do most of your driving there I would definitely go for the HGTE. Feels much more 'together' on smooth roads and will most probably hold its value better. I've had both and even on UK's surfaces I prefer the HGTE. Whichever way you go they are great cars for spirited long distance driving.
 
If you are based in Spain and do most of your driving there I would definitely go for the HGTE. Feels much more 'together' on smooth roads and will most probably hold its value better. I've had both and even on UK's surfaces I prefer the HGTE. Whichever way you go they are great cars for spirited long distance driving.



oh boy...now i'm even more confused!!

you didn't find the HGTE harsh on uk roads?
 
Best way to understand this if you don't have the pleasure of trying for yourself is to know what actually changed - note: there may be some informed opinion involved.

Full disclosure - I like my road cars to have the 'lotus school' of suspension set up. This is to say plenty of wheel travel and more initial body roll compared to the stiffly sprung 'sporty-feeling-for-the-sake-of-excitement' approach to generic sports car set-up.

Think about the way a Lotus Evora drives down a typical UK country road - (if you haven't tried one it is worth a test drive just for enlightenment) vs. The way something like an MSport BMW or at the extreme a Nissan GTR pummels its way down the road with high spring rates and stiff anti-roll bars.

So What Changed?

Ferrari measures and benchmarks progress of its road cars in terms of outright lap times around Fiorano along with and ever increasing escalation of specific engine power as its main messaging in marketing its product range evolution. The HGTE was -0.6 second quicker around Fiorano all of which can be accounted for by the softer rubber and quicker TCU software.

This, along with how Ferrari launches product - i.e. journalists either driving or being taken on 3 passenger laps at Fiorano before road driving have therefore become a big focus of the story and the brand.

When the standard 599 came out it was possible, at launch for a small number of the more capable journalists in the three laps allowed to provoke understeer at Fiorano on cars with the base level standard 19" front and 20" rears and steel brakes. Tiff Needell in particular criticised the car publicly for that. EVO magazine by contrast called it the best handling GT in the world at the time and it was indeed EVO's car of the year, a rare event for the brand. Harry Metcalfe had lived with its predecessor as a long termer and so was probably the better placed journo at the time to evaluate the car but that's partially subjective on my part. The issue with a few laps at Fiorano for Tiff is that racing drivers rightly think all road cars are by comparison to an actual track / race car terrible on track as in most cases after half a lap the tyres are usually overheated, brakes are fading and warning lights are flashing all over the dash. With only three laps to do it in what are you going to do?

So the standard optioned car had too much tendency to understeer?

On standard wheels - yes, it seems so (from one report).

I can't verify that but can imagine its possible.

It is easy to adjust out this tendency out with the rest of the stock component set-up if the components are in good condition however the stock wheels are said by Ferrari themselves to be not as good selection as a base and hence why they are not valued at all in the used market. On the optional challenge wheels however and with the right geo and suspension set-up almost all of the understeer can be eliminated by set-up alone. The £14k optional HGTE pack was in the words of EVO magazine "essentially a suite of suspension, tyre and rim changes – which are, at best, a finessing of the 599’s already exemplary road manners, essentially bumping the car up a couple of notches on the hardcore scale."

Industry cynics would call it what used to be a decals and rims flagging sales figures upgrade. [Think Vauxhall's tired model refreshes of the 80's]

The actual changes made were minimal - monogrammed but existing sports carbon seat option, CCM brakes as standard, different compound Pirelli's, 16% and 10% Stiffer springs (front and rear), 10% stiffer (and thicker) rear anti-roll bar, -10mm ride height necessitating upgraded bump stops. Leaving the factory half a degree more negative camber at the front and faster gear change software loaded into the TCU. Cosmetically the sports seats got some stitching and there was a specific to type wheel sized just like the original challenge wheel option but in a split rim design.

Of all of things that matter to a 599 the wheels are the key.

Mine already had the seats and challenge rims 20" (front and rear)
So I did a geometry adjustment on my car (see my 599 thread) - £ Labour cost
Springs - kept them stock as I didn't want extra stiffness
Ride height actually +5mm over stock as I do road events with it and from the factory it was too low for me.
Anti-roll bars kept them stock but with custom made adjustable drop links and upgraded bushes - £One hour labour and materials
Tyres upgraded to the later homologated (and far superior Michelins)
Gearbox and ECU software upgraded by my local dealer during routine service (note only possible after a certain chassis number - later cars)

If handling better means 'goes down a typical road quicker and with more composure' then my car now does that far better than an HGTE and GTO variant and I will take that Pepsi challenge all day long. If better means does better lap times on track again I would take that challenge too - tbh the michelins are most of that difference anyway. If however handling better means 'feels more dramatic and exciting' or 'more planted' then the HGTE and GTO variants would win with drivers that value that.

Personally I think the HGTE variant is not worth any kind of premium unless you really want the wheel design and / or the added kudos of 'limited' status or any 'added value' that may confer.

If you think you may reach the limits on the standard car on 20's then have the geo done and try again. If you need to go beyond that get some GTO wheels, if you unstick those especially the front end on the road then hats off. It took two further runnings of the Mille Miglia to find the upper limit on the road of the front end for me and it happened once in a 1,000 miles on the Futa Pass. I subsequently have switched to a GTO wheel set and its trick rubber but it is now right on the point of the benefits barely outweighing the down-sides on the road with only a meaningful gain on track.

The 599 is a ridiculously capable car on 20inch wheels and fresh rubber.

If it has sports carbon seats then tweak the geo change a couple of rear ARB bushes an you pretty much have the HGTE.

Lowering and stiffening is easy with the stock coilovers.

£15k was a stiff premium in period and nothing like the targeted 40% of sales optioned it so...

Try them both and see what you really need.


OG press release here http://joemacari.com/downloads/pdf/599 HGTE Package text.pdf

Period review https://youtu.be/MVQs33b1Q50

Tiff's response (note: Stirling Moss's priceless reaction @ 5:20) https://youtu.be/Ic_Cox7F0-g
 
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excellent
thanku very much


seems like a non HGTE with 20" wheels would be best for me


Is there a model year after which any changes were made......is a 2010 a better car than say a 2007?

you say: 'Gearbox and ECU software upgraded by my local dealer during routine service (note only possible after a certain chassis number - later cars)'

What year did this start?
 
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2008 cars and beyond are the one you want.

They use a later version of ECU which is upgradable to HGTE spec and can run on E10 fuel so future proof on that front. The later software really does make a difference to how the 599 runs and the early cars had some issues early on.

This is the official press release as the HGTE package was available as an upgrade or partial upgrade.

My car has the ECU / throttle mapping and shift times upgrade

FERRARI 599 GTB FIORANO – HANDLING GTE PACKAGE NOW AVAILABLE AS A FERRARI GENUINE PARTS ACCESSORY PACKAGE. IMAGES AND VIDEO ALSO AVAILABLE

The recently-launched Handling GTE option for the Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano is now also available as a Ferrari Genuine Accessories package for dealer fitment, with two options available according to the customer's specific requirements and age of vehicle.

The options are:

Model Year Ferrari Genuine Accessories available Fitted price (from) *

Pre-2008: Handling, Exhaust and Aesthetic kits £17,213

Post-2008: Handling, Performance, Exhaust and Aesthetic kits £19,703

* Final price will depend on specific kits required and model year of car. All prices are excluding VAT.

To demonstrate the enhancements offered by this exciting addition to the Ferrari Genuine Accessories range, the attached video and images of a 599 GTB Fiorano fitted with the HGTE package should convince existing owners to consider upgrading their cars to this new specification. The video and images are available free of copyright for editorial use only.

The full specification of each kit is detailed below:

1) Handling, includes:

* Lower suspension (10mm)
* New magnetorheologically controlled suspension calibration for the Manettino SPORT and RACE configurations
* More rigid suspension springs (front + 17%, rear + 15%)
* More rigid rear anti-roll bars (diameter increased to 25mm)
* HGTE specific tyres with improved compound (8% more grip)
* 3-piece modular rims with reduced weight (forged spokes) and special new design

2) Performance (only available for post-2008 cars, from engine no. 122779), includes:

* New exhausts silencers with two-tone finish tailpipes
* Enhanced F1 gearshift actuation, with response times reduced to 85ms
* New accelerator logic with modified mapping for improved throttle response

N.B. The Performance kit cannot be installed on cars with manual gearboxes.

3) Exhaust, includes:

* New exhausts silencers with two-tone finish tailpipes

The Exhaust kit is designed for:

* vehicles that cannot receive the software updates listed in the Performance kit since the engine was produced before assembly number 122779 (pre-2008)
* all cars with manual gearboxes
* clients who are only interested in modifying the styling and sound of their own cars

N.B. The Exhaust kit is included in the Performance kit, for cars post-2008.

4) Aesthetic, includes:

* New design front grille with a special chromatic treatment
* Burnished finish to Prancing Horse symbols on the front grill and rear boot lid
 
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2008 cars and beyond are the one you want.

They use a later version of ECU which is upgradable to HGTE spec and can run on E10 fuel so future proof on that front. The later software really does make a difference to how the 599 runs and the early cars had some issues early on.

This is the official press release as the HGTE package was available as an upgrade or partial upgrade.

My car has the ECU / throttle mapping and shift times upgrade

FERRARI 599 GTB FIORANO – HANDLING GTE PACKAGE NOW AVAILABLE AS A FERRARI GENUINE PARTS ACCESSORY PACKAGE. IMAGES AND VIDEO ALSO AVAILABLE

The recently-launched Handling GTE option for the Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano is now also available as a Ferrari Genuine Accessories package for dealer fitment, with two options available according to the customer's specific requirements and age of vehicle.

The options are:

Model Year Ferrari Genuine Accessories available Fitted price (from) *

Pre-2008: Handling, Exhaust and Aesthetic kits £17,213

Post-2008: Handling, Performance, Exhaust and Aesthetic kits £19,703

* Final price will depend on specific kits required and model year of car. All prices are excluding VAT.

To demonstrate the enhancements offered by this exciting addition to the Ferrari Genuine Accessories range, the attached video and images of a 599 GTB Fiorano fitted with the HGTE package should convince existing owners to consider upgrading their cars to this new specification. The video and images are available free of copyright for editorial use only.

The full specification of each kit is detailed below:

1) Handling, includes:

* Lower suspension (10mm)
* New magnetorheologically controlled suspension calibration for the Manettino SPORT and RACE configurations
* More rigid suspension springs (front + 17%, rear + 15%)
* More rigid rear anti-roll bars (diameter increased to 25mm)
* HGTE specific tyres with improved compound (8% more grip)
* 3-piece modular rims with reduced weight (forged spokes) and special new design

2) Performance (only available for post-2008 cars, from engine no. 122779), includes:

* New exhausts silencers with two-tone finish tailpipes
* Enhanced F1 gearshift actuation, with response times reduced to 85ms
* New accelerator logic with modified mapping for improved throttle response

N.B. The Performance kit cannot be installed on cars with manual gearboxes.

3) Exhaust, includes:

* New exhausts silencers with two-tone finish tailpipes

The Exhaust kit is designed for:

* vehicles that cannot receive the software updates listed in the Performance kit since the engine was produced before assembly number 122779 (pre-2008)
* all cars with manual gearboxes
* clients who are only interested in modifying the styling and sound of their own cars

N.B. The Exhaust kit is included in the Performance kit, for cars post-2008.

4) Aesthetic, includes:

* New design front grille with a special chromatic treatment
* Burnished finish to Prancing Horse symbols on the front grill and rear boot lid



much appreciated
 
couple questions:

is there a known reliable service in the UK who can:

1. renovate leaking shocks from the 599
2. renovate the CCM discs on a 599


just wanting to get the costs of ownership straight in my mind
 
1. Not in UK as far as I know, but Nagengest in Poland for about £500 per shock, and Modenoracing in Holland also.
2. There are sources for refinishing CCMs but, unless you are contemplating track use or have bought a car that has seen track use, you are unlikely to need renovation before 50k miles at least.
 
1. Not in UK as far as I know, but Nagengest in Poland for about £500 per shock, and Modenoracing in Holland also.
2. There are sources for refinishing CCMs but, unless you are contemplating track use or have bought a car that has seen track use, you are unlikely to need renovation before 50k miles at least.

My CCM’s were done at 28k miles - that’s how long the first gen CCM’s last and they wear just as much below their optimum heat zone as above it.

Factory data shows 27-30k miles is the first gen CCM life in >90% of the cars in the dealership chain.

The only company I had experience with for CCM refurbishment were a technical and commercial joke.

Avoid is my advice.

Just pay the money and get the discs when it needs them.

Every CCM you see for sale used is below the weight limit.
 
My car has done precisely 28k miles and the disc wear is showing as only 37% - and that's from the rubbish algorithm that Ferrari use. On actual condition I doubt that they are even at 37%. Admitted the car has had a gentle life before I bought it, but not many are actually tracked or taken round the Mille Miglia.
 
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