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348 GTC - How many still around & value?

chris_gilmartin said:
Exactly, I totally agree. I do think that there was some weight saving, because it says so in the owners manual and Ferrari would not tell fibs, right? :grin: It specifically says the doors and front & rear bumpers are 'in Kevlar and carbon to achieve a remarkable weight reduction'. Of course that could be a remarkably small weight deduction. Plus if the bumpers have ever been replaced who's to know really? My doors sound pleasingly lightweight. I expect the seats are probably a fair bit lighter...but never taken them out to weigh them. I've been wondering whether it's worth putting mine in for the Classiche programme at some point, if I did then presumably they would give me chapter & verse. No idea what it costs or entails though - has anyone done this for a 348?
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Regarding Classiche. Yes there has been some 348s through the scheme. Cant recall where I saw the details/info. though!

You might want to talk to your local main dealer about the Premium Scheme; which I understand is a route to Classiche. I've had a quick brief on it, but can find out more next week when I pop in to see mine being serviced if you like?


"fibreglass shatters into shards which would do serious damage to the occupant in a side impact." :hmmm:, not necessarily true and its still used in helmet construction for example; but with other materials. Besides, carbon fibre is far better at shattering than any of the other fibres; except maybe some exotics.

The cloth that you see used on the standard bumpers is referred to a "chopped strand mat". Basically fibres laid randomly. Its a cheap application method for where there are no real complicated structural load paths to consider. And more importantly probably, requires little skill to apply.

For the applications on the 348 the use of Kevlar on the bumpers and doors is interesting, as whilst this does save weight, there are other areas you could also save weight, but they didn't bother with; so was it just done on weight saving grounds alone or were there other reasons? Certainly good marketing, especially back then when it was an "exotic" material.
 
A348W said:
"fibreglass shatters into shards which would do serious damage to the occupant in a side impact." :hmmm:, not necessarily true and its still used in helmet construction for example; but with other materials. Besides, carbon fibre is far better at shattering than any of the other fibres; except maybe some exotics.

The cloth that you see used on the standard bumpers is referred to a "chopped strand mat". Basically fibres laid randomly. Its a cheap application method for where there are no real complicated structural load paths to consider. And more importantly probably, requires little skill to apply.

For the applications on the 348 the use of Kevlar on the bumpers and doors is interesting, as whilst this does save weight, there are other areas you could also save weight, but they didn't bother with; so was it just done on weight saving grounds alone or were there other reasons? Certainly good marketing, especially back then when it was an "exotic" material.
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I didn't know carbon fibre was worse than fibreglass, only that Kevlar is not as bad, that's one of the reasons we (the military) use Kevlar in helmet construction I think - it doesn't shatter when a bullet hits it.

I'm not an engineer but is what I wrote about the weave vs chopped mat a fair point ie Chris will be able to tell straight away because you simply don't get 'chopped strand mat carbon Kevlar'. carbon Kevlar is always in a weave in order to be useful.

Your last point is kind of my point - if you were going to add Carbon Kevlar panels to a standard car to lighten it, it makes little sense to choose those panels on the standard car which are already lightweight. It makes even less sense to pick the panels which are low down. Given the tensile strength of Carbon Kevlar is so high it'd make much more sense to swap out metal panels on the original car for Carbon Kevlar as that would both save weight and if the panels were higher it would also lower the C of G. If, however, you just wanted to throw out there that some panels were Carbon Kevlar then by picking non-magnetic panels it's far easier to casually make the claim...……. but perhaps I'm just a cynic.

Anyway, as I say, Chris should be able to tell at a glance.
 
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A348W said:
You might want to talk to your local main dealer about the Premium Scheme; which I understand is a route to Classiche. I've had a quick brief on it, but can find out more next week when I pop in to see mine being serviced if you like?
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Sure, if no trouble, thanks. But don't worry if not I can ask around myself if easier.

A348W said:
For the applications on the 348 the use of Kevlar on the bumpers and doors is interesting, as whilst this does save weight, there are other areas you could also save weight, but they didn't bother with; so was it just done on weight saving grounds alone or were there other reasons? Certainly good marketing, especially back then when it was an "exotic" material.
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My car is from 1994 and the seats, door sills, and ECU covers are carbon/kevlar in a lovely/ugly mixed green/brown colour, depending on your point of view. The weave & finish is similar to what you can see in an F40...personally, I love it...I know it's largely cosmetic/marketing but nevertheless, why not? As you say it was very exotic at the time.

By the way, I meant to say earlier 'bog standard' in this context is 'fabulous' in any other....it's a Ferrari, I don't think I've even seen a single one that I haven't appreciated. When I was growing up this was the impossible dream, to quote a certain Honda advert
 
chris_gilmartin said:
By the way, I meant to say earlier 'bog standard' in this context is 'fabulous' in any other....it's a Ferrari, I don't think I've even seen a single one that I haven't appreciated. When I was growing up this was the impossible dream, to quote a certain Honda advert
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Fully agree with this. Cars like the GTC are a bit special but they’re all great cars in their own right and all a small piece of Ferrari history.

chris_gilmartin said:
Unfortunately my car is elsewhere so I can't right now, I'll investigate when back in action!
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:thumbsup:
 
Nosevi said:
I didn't know carbon fibre was worse than fibreglass, only that Kevlar is not as bad, that's one of the reasons we (the military) use Kevlar in helmet construction I think - it doesn't shatter when a bullet hits it.

I'm not an engineer but is what I wrote about the weave vs chopped mat a fair point ie Chris will be able to tell straight away because you simply don't get 'chopped strand mat carbon Kevlar'. carbon Kevlar is always in a weave in order to be useful.

Your last point is kind of my point - if you were going to add Carbon Kevlar panels to a standard car to lighten it, it makes little sense to choose those panels on the standard car which are already lightweight. It makes even less sense to pick the panels which are low down. Given the tensile strength of Carbon Kevlar is so high it'd make much more sense to swap out metal panels on the original car for Carbon Kevlar as that would both save weight and if the panels were higher it would also lower the C of G. If, however, you just wanted to throw out there that some panels were Carbon Kevlar then by picking non-magnetic panels it's far easier to casually make the claim...……. but perhaps I'm just a cynic.

Anyway, as I say, Chris should be able to tell at a glance.
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I use to know a bit about it, but forgotten more than I knew!:laugh: This was some 10 years ago at least and some of the stuff they had then was mind blowing. Particularly cool was the self healing composites; from vague memory each fibre was in fact a nano tube, which contained resin, so when the fibre was broken ie laminate damaged, the resin in the "tube" would leak out and in effect self heal. Obviously not as strong as original but still. I suspect that has all moved on to an unrecognisable level now.
 
chris_gilmartin said:
Number 41 now for sale
https://www.dkeng.co.uk/ferrari-sales/1244/Prestige_Cars/Ferrari_348_GT_Competizione.html
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Great car although the write up is an utter work of fiction in places. There were very few changes from a standard GTB and most of the changes mentioned were on the race variants, not the road-going GTCs. The road-going GTCs were essentially commemorative models made after the race variants of the GTC, nothing to do with Homologation, and weren't equipped or intended for the race track. You won't see anything like the claimed weight saving with a GTC over a GTB with a sports exhaust, lighter doors and possibly very slightly lighter lower bumpers (although comparing a standard car to a GTC it was impossible to tell the difference and the original press releases said all body panels were the same). Take the roof off a GTS and I doubt there's much in it.

The standard GTB is a pretty nice car, I don't see why people selling GTCs are forever trying to put it down in order to try to make a road-going GTC look better. It's a fantastic, very rare (and so arguably warrants the price tag), commemorative GTB. It's good because the GTB was good, not because it's all that different.
 
Just so it's clear I'm not just making this stuff up, here's the original paperwork sent out at the time of the release of the road-going GTC:

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Yes, it is a very rare car and started the whole line of CS/Scud/Speciale/Pista to an extent. I personally think they are fantastic and highlight a point in Ferrari's history when Ferrari not only dominated in the Italian GT series with a 348 but also a 348 marked Ferrari's return to Le Mans. For that I think they deserve the price tag. But much of what it is claimed separates them from a GTB simply isn't true. As I said, they are that good because so is a GTB, not because they are all that different.
 
A348W said:
Never let the truth get in the way of £ :thumbsup::wink3:
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:laugh: :thumbsup:

I guess it doesn’t matter much. It just grates when people, especially garages Selling them, write about how they improved so much over the ‘failings’ of the GTB due to x y & z modifications ........... No they didn’t, they didn’t need and didn’t get modifications to drive the way they do because the ‘failings’ of the 348 GTB are mostly nonsense and many of the modifications to address handling issues are on the whole 348 fleet from back in Nov ‘91 when LdM insisted on making them pretty much on the day he took over at Ferrari.

I’m all for a bit of inventive ‘splurge’ when selling a car, but I think it’d be better to at least occasionally touch on the truth - it’s a very rare commemorative (and highly collectable) GTB which will perform (if it ever sees the road again) much like a very rare commemorative GTB.
 
Nosevi said:
:laugh: :thumbsup:

I guess it doesn’t matter much. It just grates when people, especially garages Selling them, write about how they improved so much over the ‘failings’ of the GTB due to x y & z modifications ........... No they didn’t, they didn’t need and didn’t get modifications to drive the way they do because the ‘failings’ of the 348 GTB are mostly nonsense and many of the modifications to address handling issues are on the whole 348 fleet from back in Nov ‘91 when LdM insisted on making them pretty much on the day he took over at Ferrari.

I’m all for a bit of inventive ‘splurge’ when selling a car, but I think it’d be better to at least occasionally touch on the truth - it’s a very rare commemorative (and highly collectable) GTB which will perform (if it ever sees the road again) much like a very rare commemorative GTB.
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It’s now a well worn trope and where other manufacturers have always been so so about late model ‘special editions’ (read model getting tired and long in the tooth), Ferrari found a way to rinse its models natural fade out into something ‘Speciale’. I agree the first of a line but like pretty much all of the special editions you can look at the option of the car at launch these days and predict what items will be on the Speciale Version along with some body tweaks. The irony to me is that almost all of these versions are achieved with virtually zero input from Ferrari as it almost always suppliers doing further stuff with their parts and tooling.
Still a racing driver might have some input and the hype is complete.
Like when Schumacher said of the Scuderia “it’s crap on the road now - you have to take the stiffness out for road work”.
Lol
 
Modificato said:
It’s now a well worn trope and where other manufacturers have always been so so about late model ‘special editions’ (read model getting tired and long in the tooth), Ferrari found a way to rinse its models natural fade out into something ‘Speciale’. I agree the first of a line but like pretty much all of the special editions you can look at the option of the car at launch these days and predict what items will be on the Speciale Version along with some body tweaks. The irony to me is that almost all of these versions are achieved with virtually zero input from Ferrari as it almost always suppliers doing further stuff with their parts and tooling.
Still a racing driver might have some input and the hype is complete.
Like when Schumacher said of the Scuderia “it’s crap on the road now - you have to take the stiffness out for road work”.
Lol
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:thumbsup:

Perhaps I’m just naive in wanting a bit more research from a well regarded dealer/indie before they post up stuff that simply isn't true in a sale's description. The old “the 348 GTC is an ultra-special homologation car with all the tweaks of the race cars.... “ line is just bonkers. In fact the one really ‘racey’ mod they put on it - the racing clutch - was so useless on the road they took it off again. Besides, I wouldn’t think it’s all that common to race a car for a few seasons, win a couple of championships then, as the car is about to be ‘retired’ when the new faster incoming model is launched you feel the need to build a homologation variant to somehow make the previous few season’s racing legal?!?!? Sort of think the FIA would prefer it the other way round.

Truth is you could easily recreate the performance of a road-going GTC with a standard 348 GTB and you’d have to do a darn sight less than you or others have done to make ‘standard’ 430s more like Scuds. But that’s not the point, is it? I just think it’s a bit of a shame that the real reason the car was made gets lost amongst all the lies and nonsense spoken about them. I personally think the history behind the real reason is far more interesting than the ‘hype’. It also happens to be true which is a bonus.
 
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Modificato said:
Like when Schumacher said of the Scuderia “it’s crap on the road now - you have to take the stiffness out for road work”.
Lol
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But he didn't did he? He suggested adding another driver option of road stiffness in race mode, should the road conditions merit it. Nothing taken out. If you don't like this option don't press the button.
 
KenC said:
But he didn't did he? He suggested adding another driver option of road stiffness in race mode, should the road conditions merit it. Nothing taken out. If you don't like this option don't press the button.
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I think the Scud is a totally different proposition to the 348 GTC in terms of the original cars, Ken. Lots of development went into the Scud to make it more like a track car to drive but still manageable on the road. That's just not what the 348 GTC (road going) was made for. It was meant to look a bit like the race car variant, it was never intended to drive like it. My guess is the light-weight doors were as much about giving the impression of getting into the race car as actually for weight saving. If they had been serious about stripping out weight from a standard car they could have done but they didn't bother. The only weight saving that's been 'touted' over the doors, seats and exhaust (which to be fair weighs a ton on the standard car) are the lower bumpers. These are light weight on the standard cars anyway, look identical on the GTC to a standard car and the specs from back in the day say they were standard. It'd be fairly easy for a GTC owner to check, simply look inside them at the weave. Happy to be wrong but I think you'll find glass fibre not carbon-Kevlar.

As I said earlier, I just don't think all the hype about track like performance and modifications is necessary. For one, who's going to take one on a track now anyway? And for two, they're a pretty special car in their own right due to the history and rarity, they don't need the hype.
 
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