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Buying a 360 Manual

S

stuarts

New member
Hello guys,

Bit of a while since I've been on here - my dalliance with Porsche's and old Alfa's kept me away!
Anyway, I'm now looking for another car - either a 355 or 360 manual.
I do love 355's but have increasingly thought the 360 is so underrated.
I'm off to look at this car tomorrow, does anyone know of it?
Looks like just what I'm after, however, has had a lot of engine work at only 24K miles?????

https://jzmporsche.com/cars/ferrari-360-p0202/

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

Cheers
 
TDF is a lovely colour. Even though I believe too that the 360 is an underrated model, that is a lot of money :hmmm:
 
stuarts said:
Big £21k bill for clutch, tyres, suspension, interior and engine 'refresh' including ECU programming and CS Firmware
Click to expand...

Wouldn’t be that hard to get to that figure; nor that unusual if lots of “whilst your there” and “nice to have” stuff was done.

Certainly wouldn’t put me off in the slightest; opposite in fact. Who did the work?

I’m sure others who have owned 360s will chip in for specifics. (I can tell you clutch and suspension prices for 348!)
 
I looked into this car and was delighted to see £24k spent at AV engineering doing almost everything you could think of.

What was odd to me was that there was then a bill for c£28k (if i recall) for an engine rebuild about a month after the AV bill. It actually appeared to me as though the engine had been replaced. I raised it with the sales guy who seemed surprised I’d noticed and ask that we speak. To paraphrase, he told me the owner had preferred the engine in his other 360 and swapped them. He didn’t really have an answer for why someone would make two cars no longer matching numbers, and given the price it’s up for, they obviously don’t much care!

Not a recommendation, but on learning all that, I ran a mile.
 
Beda said:
I looked into this car and was delighted to see £24k spent at AV engineering doing almost everything you could think of.

What was odd to me was that there was then a bill for c£28k (if i recall) for an engine rebuild about a month after the AV bill. It actually appeared to me as though the engine had been replaced. I raised it with the sales guy who seemed surprised I’d noticed and ask that we speak. To paraphrase, he told me the owner had preferred the engine in his other 360 and swapped them. He didn’t really have an answer for why someone would make two cars no longer matching numbers, and given the price it’s up for, they obviously don’t much care!

Not a recommendation, but on learning all that, I ran a mile.
Click to expand...

There’s a fine line between properly maintaining a car regardless of cost and a total money-pit and I’d suggest £52k spent inside a few months is probably closer to the latter.
 
Thanks guys,
I'm going to have a look at it today before I dismiss it totally - and am looking at a few others. Popping to Slade's Garage in Penn to look at their stock too. They have a few nice looking cars in stock including a gun metal 355 manual (though it's a bit pricey!)
 
Beda said:
I looked into this car and was delighted to see £24k spent at AV engineering doing almost everything you could think of.

What was odd to me was that there was then a bill for c£28k (if i recall) for an engine rebuild about a month after the AV bill. It actually appeared to me as though the engine had been replaced. I raised it with the sales guy who seemed surprised I’d noticed and ask that we speak. To paraphrase, he told me the owner had preferred the engine in his other 360 and swapped them. He didn’t really have an answer for why someone would make two cars no longer matching numbers, and given the price it’s up for, they obviously don’t much care!

Not a recommendation, but on learning all that, I ran a mile.
Click to expand...

That’s all very odd. A dealer should be up front about that as it would come out in any ppi done; and then you would be seriously annoyed having spent all that time and money!!!

If your investigations turn up the same result I’d run away! Ex track day car perhaps?
 
At that money I would expect a matching number car with full service history etc. I know you should buy a car with a view to selling it, but on the premise that you might want to sell in the future you might really struggle to get anyone to even look at a car with suspect history let alone buy it.

I would even bother to look at it as the back story makes no sense at all. I would run away from this one :laugh:
 
I would say that having AV Engineering carrying out the work is a positive but the car is absolutely top money. Even more so for a car being sold by a non-specialist let alone a main Ferrari dealer. It's possibly £20k over for me and I say this as an eight year Modena owner (until last year). I love the model, but not at that price!
 
Kyodo said:
I would say that having AV Engineering carrying out the work is a positive but the car is absolutely top money. Even more so for a car being sold by a non-specialist let alone a main Ferrari dealer. It's possibly £20k over for me and I say this as an eight year Modena owner (until last year). I love the model, but not at that price!
Click to expand...

Agreed re AV. My issue, and I may have misunderstood (but wasn’t corrected when I said it to the dealer) is that the car AV did all the work to is not the car being marketed, given the engine work / swap carried out after AV did a huge amount to it (again, my understanding which wasn’t corrected). The car had a great history right up until the moment the engine was swapped out, but now has almost no mechanical history at all.

Maybe I could have grown comfortable with it if the engine work had also been done at AV but it wasn’t, it was done elsewhere. I have no knowledge of the garage that did the engine and have no reason to doubt their work, but they weren’t one of the small number of names that crop up here as excellent.

It feels like a lot of money given my interpretation of the history of the car, but it is also my dream spec!
 
stuarts said:
Big £21k bill for clutch, tyres, suspension, interior and engine 'refresh' including ECU programming and CS Firmware
Click to expand...

That's not a big bill for all that.

It is basically the routine for recommissioning a low mileage dry stored Ferrari.

It is absolutely essential if and when you want to start driving them.

As for the scale of the bill, It's likely a couple of leaky shocks, replacement suspension bushes, likely four ball joints, ARB bushes, drop links, tyres etc.

An ECU re-program is likely to have been needed to stop error messages from the aftermarket exhaust interaction with the catalyst ECU's and Challenge Stradale firmware is normally the gearbox upgrade common to modernise 360's F1 software so not sure why this manual car would have that.

Frankly if such a low mileage car hasn't got a bill like this in it's file then it will soon have one the minute it gets driven.

Think about it circa 1,000 miles per year is a terrible thing for any complex mechanical device designed for regular use.

If you only ran your washing machine this much it wouldn't last a year

The engine swap and lack of documentation plus pedal wear is ALARM for me.

The profit motivation around manual cars is likely too tempting at the moment
 
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If this was a perfect car with full history and no unusual engine swap I'd still say £90k is still way too high. I have no idea of the dealer and they may well be first class but even if this car had the original engine it would be £75k-£80k at the most IMHO. £90k is well into F430 money.
I saw a 458 for for just over £100k a few weeks back.
 
So, I went to look at the car today.

It is very tidy (pedals aren't that bad in the flesh for those concerned). JZM are a very well respected Porsche specialist - and have superb cars in stock.
The car is owned by a wealthy regular client (who's just bought two GT3 RS's). He's spent a lot of money on this car, and as the story goes, had this and a 360 Spyder, both of which had loads of work done and then he decided he preferred the engine in the Spyder was better suited to the Moderna! Strange, but I guess that's how some wealthy enthusiasts must think.

I agree with the thoughts on the price, it's way too much, but considering the overall condition, lack of money needed on anything, it may be worth a cheeky low offer.
 
That is extremely odd. Just to get the story straight, both engines were ok but he spent £28k simply swapping them round? Sorry but that just doesn't add up - I have no idea quite how complicated swapping an engine in a 360 is but in a 348 it'd cost perhaps £2k, perhaps a smidge less. Maybe an unfair comparison as the engine is designed to come out on a 348 but it simply can't cost £28k to swap two perfectly good engines round. Hate to say it but I really don't think you're being given the whole story.
 
Nosevi said:
That is extremely odd. Just to get the story straight, both engines were ok but he spent £28k simply swapping them round? Sorry but that just doesn't add up - I have no idea quite how complicated swapping an engine in a 360 is but in a 348 it'd cost perhaps £2k, perhaps a smidge less. Maybe an unfair comparison as the engine is designed to come out on a 348 but it simply can't cost £28k to swap two perfectly good engines round. Hate to say it but I really don't think you're being given the whole story.
Click to expand...

Yep, I know. £28K was for engine work and not just the swap-out.
JZM aren't trying in anyway to hide anything, that's the story they've been given and are passing on. Maybe a conversation with the owner would be informative?
 
stuarts said:
Yep, I know. £28K was for engine work and not just the swap-out.
JZM aren't trying in anyway to hide anything, that's the story they've been given and are passing on. Maybe a conversation with the owner would be informative?
Click to expand...

Sure, and I believe they are just passing on what they were told, but it simply doesn't add up.

If AV had had the Modena just before and done all that work you'd hope it didn't need serious engine work a month later, less if you deduct the time taken for the work. If it did I'd be talking to AV, not another outfit. So by deduction the engine work was on the Spider engine (not Spyder - it's not a Porker :wink3: ) ie the engine now in this car.

So did the owner really think the engine in the Spider was better suited to the Modena or did he keep the Spider but didn't want this engine in it? If so why? Or did he sell the Spider first but wanted to keep its engine in the car he kept? Does the new owner of the Spider know this if it was the case or was the swap made because the previous owner "felt the Modena engine better suited this car."

There are several possible reasons for swapping the engines over and then selling the car(s) but thinking one engine is better suited to one of the cars is, I'm afraid, a BS story. There's something else here but 'better suited' doesn't quite sit right. My wild stab in the dark guess is that the owner was unhappy with one of the engines, find out which car he sold or is selling first (or rather which engine) and you'll probably find out which one.

As an aside, 23,687 miles - this car or the Spider? ie the car you're looking at or the engine in it? Is this a high mileage engine that needed a rebuild being sold as a very low mileage example? Call me a cynic but the mark-up for a very low mileage Ferrari compared to a high mileage example could well be worth the swap. Not saying that has happened but what's the mileage on this engine if the mileage the car is being sold as is in fact the mileage the Modena has done?
 
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