darft vader
New member
Nice pics not sure about those new wings tho :hmmm:
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599GTB - Modificato Project
- Thread starter Modificato
- Start date
Modificato
New member
Yeah they are quite agressive BUT uncanny in eliminating the problem they were designed to solve.
Five bolts each to remove and return to stock.
Fluffekins
New member
Mod, I may have missed an earlier explanation, but what problem are they designed to address and at what speed can you feel the effect?
Kyodo
Active member
I fist saw them on a 599GTO and don't fancy them much either (looks-wise). If they serve a real purpose however and the car's driven hard, as yours is then yep, a good call. Are they from the XX?
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Modificato
New member
They are designed to provide targeted rear axle downforce and eliminate wheel spin on medium speed corner exits which happens a lot on fast road driving. The slot then bleeds air above the target speed so as not to induce front end lift. They are XX parts that normally require an XX chassis number to order OR were part of a ‘track aero pack’ that was launched for GTB and GTO at the time of the GTO launch. The genuine parts are made by RI-BA who do F1 and XX program parts but unfortunately there are some potentially dangerous fakes out there. I was offered a set by the factory who like the idea that the car evolves each year for the Mille Miglia hence Ferrari themselves sourcing and fitting them for me.
Fakes (on a GTO)
The real thing pre-paint
Fluffekins
New member
Thanks, clever stuff. How fast is fast road driving though, what is a medium speed corner and how fast would you need to go to get wheel spin on exit? Are we talking like 100 mph i.e. approx half the top speed or is that too simplistic? Assume this helps with things such as your MM exploits?
Hope these aren't stupid questions.
Hope these aren't stupid questions.
Modificato
New member
The guys at the factory told me that meaningful downforce with winglets starts earlier than standard at 100km/h and peaks at 124km/h where the car needs no further rear axle downforce. I questioned why the 599 XX EVO has a massive wing but they showed me it is actually active and therefore controls both front and rear downforce fore and aft. The winglets on my car along with its standard nolder and GTO diffuser produces a theoretical peak just shy of 300kg of downforce.
What this translates to is meaningful inprovement in the shift from second to third which is where the car strips it’s rear tyres of rubber at an alarming rate but more importantly triggers the electronics which means you end up driving around them and not using everything the power train can give. Of course we are talking small margins in a specific window but as an engineer that sort of stuff appeals to me.
Modificato
New member
Late edit above
A348W
Well-known member
Did the factory say what contribution to the downforce the winglets provided. Quite interesting and I might just get my old naca books out and see if I can figure it out. (Serious test of the grey matter!)
The end plates are interesting as well as they look far bigger than you would need, so either they are that way for style or something else is happening there.
Cheers for posting up.
The end plates are interesting as well as they look far bigger than you would need, so either they are that way for style or something else is happening there.
Cheers for posting up.
sssdu01
Active member
I cant imagine that the winglets provide much of that downforce. I conclude this from conducting very unscientific studies whilst flying, and sticking my hands out into the airflow. :laugh:
Modificato
New member
I’d rather you break out a software package as we have learned a great deal since the days of the NACA books.
Think of the wing fences as the equivalent of your holiday airliner ones BUT upside down - then consider the length of the wing - very short and the top surface of the rear panel being a hard surface vs. The sky in the airliner example. Hence the proportion of fence required to produce the same holding effect. It’s likely that these winglets produce very little to the overall downforce figure but are very specific to the problem they are seeking to solve which won’t take that much to solve but to do it with little drag is the cool aspect for me. Note the bleed slot will at high speed improve the original downforce effect from the buttress / nolder combination by providing an upper holding layer of pressure over the boot. That these winglets therefore do two different things at different speeds is what I like about them more than the aesthetic...
A348W
Well-known member
Software...steady on there
It must be 30 years since I did any actual flow calc so Naca book is best it will get, and even that looks a bit daunting these days with all those equations. There are even integration signs in there :grin:
Agree though that there are a few things that those winglets are doing, so its not just as simple as the downforce generated by them; but I was just curious as to see what downforce they did generate in isolation at the speeds mentioned.
Modificato
New member
I assume you stuck your hand out of the upper part of that lifting body so you will have been playing in low pressure. Modern cars don’t lift and indeed many create downforce so have their high pressure on the upper surface. Putting you hands into the airflow on an aircraft vs a car understandably leads to very different feelings.
Also if we are to have any discussions on modern aerodynamics let’s get a few of the myths out of the way.
1) How wings actually work - 95% of people are taught the wrong science that is out of date.
https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/how-wings-really-work
sssdu01
Active member
That video is very misleading as the wing is approaching a stalled condition and in normal level flight the wing profile will be flatter. Also I cant agree with his assumption that most people have the wrong idea. All the pilots I know understand how a plane flies
You could also put several aerodynamics experts in the same room and they will all have slightly different ideas, but the normal consensus is the leading edge of an aerofoil will produce some downforce and the trailing edge will produce lift - thats why the thickest part of the wing is always in the front quarter or third of the wing, leaving the trailing edge area much bigger than the leading edge. However its all a bit of a dark art as a flat plank of wood will generate lift given sufficient angle of attack and airspeed. Take a modern 747 at full load - each square foot of wing generates 165 Lbs of lift at take off speed - equate that to a Pitts Special stunt plane and it suggests it would only need 9.8 square feet of wing area to get off the ground but the actual wing area is 125 square feet. I put this as a toung in cheek question to two aerodynamicists and thats when they start to argue
Modificato
New member
That video is very misleading as the wing is approaching a stalled condition and in normal level flight the wing profile will be flatter. Also I cant agree with his assumption that most people have the wrong idea. All the pilots I know understand how a plane flies
Take a modern 747 at full load - each square foot of wing generates 165 Lbs of lift at take off speed - equate that to a Pitts Special stunt plane and it suggests it would only need 9.8 square feet of wing area to get off the ground but the actual wing area is 125 square feet. I put this as a toung in cheek question to two aerodynamicists and thats when they start to argue
Nice...paradox
The 95% he referred to is not your experts.
His assumption is for the general population and is in my experience correct.
He is highlighting that in general education people are taught wrongly.
Modificato
New member
Silverstone and upgrades report
So its been a long while indeed since I last drove the 599 in anger and on track. My coma recovery has meant that although The physical recovery has long since been complete mentally it has taken a while longer.
So a chance to attend the Passione Ferrari event this weekend was all the excuse I needed.
We took two cars the F430 Viale project car (which I could not wrestle out of my sons hands all day) and the 599 for its first run at event speed since its last evolution
Just for context: It was the first real test of the latest upgrade package - I have done upgrades mainly targeted at road events so although it is rapid on track it is really set up for fast road work.
Evolution 1 For the first attempt at the Mille Miglia Tribute - custom geometry, spring pre-load reduction, and ride height increased plus main cat(s) delete and custom drop links.
Evolution 2 For the second attempt at the Mille Miglia Tribute - GTO rear section for additional downforce and reduced weight plus new rubber
Evolution 3 GTO wheel set and Michelin rubber, New CCM discs and pads, XX program rear buttresses with winglets.
I had three stints on the Silverstone GP circuit and this is what has happened.
The wheel set with its reduced unsprung weight, extra rubber and more modern tyre tech has resulted in a massive overall increase in grip. This was already high before and particularly at the front axle where grip was never an issue.
The only way I could get the car to break rear traction was to deliberately induce oversteer and thus go slower.
Front end grip which was freakishly high before - with the tweaked geo - was now beyond me in the three sessions I had. I pushed and pushed as much I could and my instructor said “I guess we will have to wait until another day to find the front axles limit” - utterly bonkers level of grip.
There was also not enough time to find the rear grip limit either except when I made a mistake and lifted mid corner as I was closing too quickly on another car. The best news is the winglets work exactly as advertised and any drag penalty was not discernible down the hanger straight. The rear wheels now barely break traction at all and out of medium speed corners in particular the winglets are definitely doing their thing as you can feel the rear is even more planted.
No doubt the better and bigger GTO rubber has helped A great deal but for this the first time on track I left feeling there was way more to come from the car than I could extract In the sessions I had. Oh well an excuse to do more testing.
The reduced road wheel weight was not detectable in the driving experience through the feel at the steering wheel which was very similar to how I remembered it before.
I was lapping consistently with a 488 Pista and much quicker in the second session before - on the last session - my brake pedal went long as the brake fluid is clearly shot.
Oh well an excuse to do another track day sometime.
I need to find the beasts upper limits and get used to the new envelope before any new shot at the Mille Miglia Tribute.
So its been a long while indeed since I last drove the 599 in anger and on track. My coma recovery has meant that although The physical recovery has long since been complete mentally it has taken a while longer.
So a chance to attend the Passione Ferrari event this weekend was all the excuse I needed.
We took two cars the F430 Viale project car (which I could not wrestle out of my sons hands all day) and the 599 for its first run at event speed since its last evolution
Just for context: It was the first real test of the latest upgrade package - I have done upgrades mainly targeted at road events so although it is rapid on track it is really set up for fast road work.
Evolution 1 For the first attempt at the Mille Miglia Tribute - custom geometry, spring pre-load reduction, and ride height increased plus main cat(s) delete and custom drop links.
Evolution 2 For the second attempt at the Mille Miglia Tribute - GTO rear section for additional downforce and reduced weight plus new rubber
Evolution 3 GTO wheel set and Michelin rubber, New CCM discs and pads, XX program rear buttresses with winglets.
I had three stints on the Silverstone GP circuit and this is what has happened.
The wheel set with its reduced unsprung weight, extra rubber and more modern tyre tech has resulted in a massive overall increase in grip. This was already high before and particularly at the front axle where grip was never an issue.
The only way I could get the car to break rear traction was to deliberately induce oversteer and thus go slower.
Front end grip which was freakishly high before - with the tweaked geo - was now beyond me in the three sessions I had. I pushed and pushed as much I could and my instructor said “I guess we will have to wait until another day to find the front axles limit” - utterly bonkers level of grip.
There was also not enough time to find the rear grip limit either except when I made a mistake and lifted mid corner as I was closing too quickly on another car. The best news is the winglets work exactly as advertised and any drag penalty was not discernible down the hanger straight. The rear wheels now barely break traction at all and out of medium speed corners in particular the winglets are definitely doing their thing as you can feel the rear is even more planted.
No doubt the better and bigger GTO rubber has helped A great deal but for this the first time on track I left feeling there was way more to come from the car than I could extract In the sessions I had. Oh well an excuse to do more testing.
The reduced road wheel weight was not detectable in the driving experience through the feel at the steering wheel which was very similar to how I remembered it before.
I was lapping consistently with a 488 Pista and much quicker in the second session before - on the last session - my brake pedal went long as the brake fluid is clearly shot.
Oh well an excuse to do another track day sometime.
I need to find the beasts upper limits and get used to the new envelope before any new shot at the Mille Miglia Tribute.
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Modificato
New member
It really is ridiculously capable.
I have driven this three times to the Mille Miglia - done 1,000 miles there at GT speeds, done the 1,000 mile event at a sometimes relentless pace and then driven a 1,000 miles back. - three times...
We are now at 17,000 miles together all told and it never fails to leave me utterly speechless when you consider what it is doing and what it is actually capable of.
On track where any front engined GT should be rightly exposed by more modern machinery it just gives more and more.
It isn’t as easy to drive fast as the V8’s on track but it’s all the more rewarding for that.
Per the earlier parts of my thread it seems the 599 tipo had some crucial but small issues that prevented it from stacking up miles in early ownership which is a crime given its design case. My cars history was a succession of likely pissed off owners having Grown fed up of ruined MAF filters and lots of TPMS / Parking sensor related warranty issues that were likely just too annoying and resulted in many cars being back and forth into the dealers.
It’s not unusual to find every one with multiple former owners and if an honest record of documents is there - a trail of fumbling in the dark and expensive interventions before the factory finally found and then issued a new oil change procedure (without the misprint) in 2016! Since then the cars have proven absolutely bulletproof and I was informed last week that the service schedule has now been relaxed with regard to majors and some expensive items to reflect that. This means they are now cheaper to run than the service schedule In the book would suggest.
There are some high mileage 599’s around the world that have proven the enzo derived engine is one that just
keeps on giving and that with regular use the car is bulletproof.
I love it and won’t move on until I am bored of it and have got too used to its limits - I think we are in for the long haul.
These cars are absolute bargains right now if you just sort some basics out on arrival to your garage. In years to come N/A 12’s will be highly coveted as new ones are being legislated off the roads. Get one while you can.
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